16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
The question is this? Does my prayer effect change in the heart and mind of God? I was talking to a good brother (one who I will not expose due to heresy hunters 
) about the fact does our prayers make any difference or are all of the outcomes predetermined by God regardless of our requests?
As I read through the scriptures I have to argue for the former. I believe God’s mind can be changed on a particular situation and that the outcome is not predetermined to the point where regardless of what I ask God has set the course in “eternity past”.
Reading through James he says in Chapter 5 “the prayer of a righteous man has much power”! Power to do what? Power to submit to the predetermined plan of God? Or power to effect change in the circumstances of others? I think the latter in these two rhetorical questions.
I recall many times in both the Old and New Testament, God willing or saying one thing but then changing His mind due to a human response. Rather that is prayer, sin, a righteous act or faith. I think the predetermined view robs prayer of its power and does a disservice to quite a few narratives God has revealed through His word. For example, the stories of Hezekiah, Moses interceding twice for Israel, the Flood, numerous times in the Gospels where someone’s faith got them or someone else healed. A few times in Acts and so on.
I close with this. We have the authority and power through the Spirit through prayer to effect change. Everything from healing the sick, changing the predicaments of others, having God restore what the enemy has stolen and so forth. I don’t believe that the only thing prayer is good for is to “change our hearts and minds” as I was once told. I believe many times we miss out on the move of God and opportunities to restore and heal because of a lack of faith (at least this is what Matthew implies in Matthew 13).
So again I will only quote what the Spirit has already revealed “the prayer of the righteous has much power”.
Lionel-
I agree lets take God at His Word.
Ask, Seek, Knock…you have not because you ask not.
I totally agree. I refuse to limit God, and I think the right view of predestination is in order if we are going to hold God true to His word.
But why do you think we don’t see a lot of healing today [to use your example] as we see in Scripture? I’ve read a couple of cessationist’s account for this, but I reject them because they are not scriptural. But I’ve read some accounts on the other end of the spectrum that declare we don’t have enough faith. I have a few questions. Anyone can take a stab at them as long as you are stabbing with the Sword of the Spirit…(hehehe)
How can someone measure someone else’s faith?
At what point do you say, “God’s grace is sufficient,” and accept the circumstance?
How do you know when you have enough faith?
This is true…the prayers of the righteous avail much…
God hears us, and we have the prayers that we ask of Him…when we pray according to His will
If we abide in Him and His word abides in us, we can ask for whatever we wish and it shall be done for us.
Its interesting that God only answers certain kinds of prayers. But, it is even more interesting that He answers any. That we are able to commune with the Infinite, the Almighty, the Holy, the Immutable, the Just, the Righteous, the All Knowing, the Gracious Father…really…interesting is not the word…I think we don’t really have a word to fully describe the blessing of prayer.
The one who already knows every thought and word before I speak it (Ps 139), who knows every need before I express it, who knows the beginning from the end…still calls me to pray…He calls me to draw near to His presence to experience His comfort, peace, assurance, love, providential care…to abide in Him.
It is even more interesting that God has ordained in His Word that He hears only the prayers of the righteous…but it is only He that justifies the righteous.
What love the Father has bestowed on us that we should be called the children of God – and such we are! God is pleased to answer the prayers of His children…and we – the sinners that we are – get to exprience that pleasure.
Now that is mystery…
btw, if God already knows what I’m going to ask…does he already know how He’s going to answer?
Javetta,
1. I think it is because we have a lack of faith. Jesus says numerous of times that things couldn’t be accomplished because of a lack of faith and says things have been accomplished because of someones faith.
2. I don’t think we can, I believe that is between them and God; however, I think we have to challenge someones measure of faith by preaching what faith looks like and does in the Holy Scriptures.
3. Check out the Luke 18 first few verses. I think one way to measure our faith is to see how persistent we are in appealing to our Good and Heavenly Father. On the other hand our faith is depended upon our responses to unanswered prayer. If anxiety, double-mindness, or accusing God arises then I don’t believe that is faith. The only person I know that God said “stop asking” was Paul in 2 Corinthians.
By the way I thank my God for your diagnosis sister! Praise God! I know Jeff-Money is happy!
1. Q, why do you believe that God only hears the prayers of the righteous?
2. Do you believe Hezekiah’s prayer was answered back in eternity past and what if he would not have prayed?
3. Do you believe what Jesus says when he says “your faith has made you well” and “your lack of faith prevented you from doing….”?
4. Your second comment could be true, but I would say God answered based off of His foreknowledge of your request, not from His decreed will.
When it comes to the issue of prayer, I look at it lot more in context with the relationship we now have in Christ.
Abstract scholarship that leads us to the conslusion that God is going to do what He wants to do, or that repeatedly says that God does not need me to accomplish His will totally misses the point that God is our Father who loves His children.
Yes, I know God is sovereign and the answer to why His answering my prayer does not limit His sovereignty is-I do not know! But I do know that we miss out on a vital part of the relationship when we do not converse with God in prayer.
Maybe thats why we are told to pray without ceasing.
We have already developed the clear biblical teaching that a purely scholarly or theoretical understanding of scripture is not the same as saving faith or the relationship we should have or need with our Saviour.
Everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving…..
Lionel,
Ok bro, lets get back on the merry go round real quick…
Before I answer your questions…let me throw out a question for you…
What did I say in that last post that engendered all the questions? Was there anything I said that isn’t true in Scripture or anything I said that was contesting what you said?
Ok, to your “questions” –
1. Because the passage you brought ups says so…”the prayers of the righteous avail much…” other direct passages such as Isa 1:15, 59:2 (sin separates us from God and thus he does not hear), Psalm 66:17 (God does not listen to the one who regards sin in their heart),
On another note, throughout Scriptures (e.g., Psalms), the basis on which the writer petitions God to hear their prayers on the basis of His kindness, grace, mercy, and rigtheousness. It is His own rigtheousness they the writer understands they must approach God – an imputed rigtheousness. God hears the prayers of those who are rigtheous by faith.
In Hebrews, we draw near to God in confidence (faith) in our Great High Priest.
2. I believe what the Bible says, “everday ordained for me was written before one them came to be” (Psalm 139:16; see also Job 14:5; Acts 17:24-28 – a classic compatibilist passage). And I believe Is 46:9-10, “For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;”
So, yes, I do believe Hezekiah’s prayer was answered in eternity past.
Do you believe God to be outside of time? if no, then God cannot know all things. If he know’s all things then why should Hezekiah pray?
3. Again, I believe what Jesus said – BUT – I also believe what Jesus says elsewhere in concert with this verse. It is through the Word of Christ that the faith was brought forth (Romans 10:17, faith comes by hearing; or John 10 – my sheep know me, hear my voice, and follow me). It is only by God revealing the truth to the mind that one comes to faith – “blessed are you Simon Bar Jonah for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my father who is in heaven…”. This faith or lack thereof is working within “the counsel of His will” (as all things work after – Eph 1) – how? this is mystery. But, ultimately faith is “the gift of God”.
Now, once one is regenerate – and their will is not bound, they are able to strengthen their faith through letting the Word dwell richly in them. They affect their own sanctification for the better or for the worse. But, God is still working “in us to will and act according to His good pleasure.” (Phil 2:14)
4. Foreknowledge and the divine decree cannot be separated. “for those whom he foreknow he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son.” (Rom 8:29)
Question: So, did God decree anything? And what things does God seperate in His decree from His foreknowledge – and where do you get this information from??
Finally,
I think the problem is, you are now imposing your own (should I say new) presupposition on what Calvinists believe (which is usually the case with most anti-Calvinists). Because you can’t see how God can decree, yet hold someone responsible, you automatically assume we deny man’s responsibility to believe and it affecting the decisions of God. You have implied that God’s sovereign decree of all things necessitates a lack of human freedom. But, that is your logic and not the biblical witness.
We’re going to keep going in circles on this piece bro because you keep asking the same questions and I keep giving you the same answers…until you really deal with “the whole counsel”
Again, I do not negate that God interacts with free human agents (we may define freedom differently); nor do I (or most Calvinists) deny that that the responsible actions of people do not have any bearing. We just hold God’s complete sovereignty and man’s complete responsibility side by side – as the Scriptures do…and we do not seek to reconcile this fact. It is divine mystery. And until you can convice me that the Scriptures DON’T do this by actually interacting with Scripture (like showing me the 20 verses that contradict what I’m saying…) …we will go in circles…(you’d have to go back and discuss all the passages I, and Brian, mentioned back on your “BELIEVE” post).
I love you bro, but I have to say that if you keep trying to decontruct every “calvinist” assertion as unbiblical, you’re going to find yourself decontructing Scripture itself and your own orthodoxy. You will have to separate your new anti-reformed/Calvinist bias with your search for truth…
And I hope you hear my love…it’s not antagonism with me (i’m the one on the defense
)…still waitin to have you and the fam over…maybe the Calvinst brothers don’t get any love any more! 
Jude 2,
Q
Hutch,
When you say “Abstract scholarship that leads us to the conslusion that God is going to do what He wants to do, or that repeatedly says that God does not need me to accomplish His will totally misses the point that God is our Father who loves His children.”
Is that a statement towards Reformed teaching? If so, I would say that is a mischaracterization of historic Calvinism. (If not, no worries.) I would also say that the Bible says – “God is heavens and does all that pleases Him…” so, it is right to say “God does what he wants to do”. But, he graciously chooses to determine means to those ends which involve human decisions, choices, and actions.
You said:
“Yes, I know God is sovereign and the answer to why His answering my prayer does not limit His sovereignty is-I do not know!” – that is exactly what I am saying!
Thanks.
Jude 2,
Q
Q-
No, my response was more in line with the general theme posed in Lionels post, not questioning your contributions or Calvinism.
I embrace the doctrines of grace as accurately portrayed in scripture yet would not want to be indentified with John Calvin or Martin Luther.
I think their scholarship regarding the doctrines of grace is very helpful, but their doctrine seems to never have penetrated into a walk with God that led to sanctification as they where both murderous and hateful individuals, Luther was by far the worse of the two.
Their sanctioning and instigation of the killing of the saints of God seems to indicate they interacted with the scriptures much like the Pharisees, it was all scholarship and head knowledge with no relationship or the resulting development of spiritual fruit love, patience, kindness…etc…etc
My point although probably not very well made was just an insight into the fact that I know God is sovereign and can articulate the passages as you have well done as proof-text, but once all is said and done, I think it best to deal with the New Covenant scriptures regarding prayer at face value and simply pour out my heart in prayer to my Heavenly Father as the very dependant child that I am.
That’s all.
Hutch,
Amen to your last paragraph…that is what I was articulating in my first post on this thread.
Thanks for the clarification.
Lionel-
What is the temperature back in our home state of Tejas? Its -5 degrees F where I am today.
Q-
How should we define the righteous man under the New Covenant?
Would that be a believer who has reached a certain level of maturity and sanctification in his Christian walk or would that be any believer who from day one upon being born again has the very imputed righteousness of Christ?
The reason I ask is in reference to answered prayer.
Lionel
I believe the question of prayer is one more affirmation of the absolute sovereignity of God.God does only what he wills,when,where,how,and through whom he wishes.
God is indeed not abve using unbelievers to actualise his will,his plan and purpose.God it was that hardened the heart of Pharaoh,that used a pagan monarchy and its King to punish his own people Israel.
Even with such miraculous events as the fire strikes called down by Elisha and Elijah,I beleve these only occurred at God’s behest.
Prayer of course still has its place.It is man’s way ofc ommunion with God,propositioning and petitioning Him.But our petitions must fall in line with God’s will.As James notes we ask and do not receive because we ask not according to His will but for our own plans and purposes(pleasures).
There are at least 4 possible answers to prayer
1That God gives an instant reply
2 That God answers positively but with a time lag
3 That Gog grants our petition but in a fashion different from what we requested
4 God does not grant our request
To believe that our prayers,without God’s assent,will move mountains,is to descend into witchcraft.As the Lord’s prayer maintains,may His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Tunji-
I am not speaking for Lionel, but I do not think he implied in his post that our prayers accomplish anything in and of themselves apart from God answering that prayer.
Can we as believers do without something if we fail to ask, seek and knock as Christ taught?
Does something different happen if we pray than would happen if we did not pray?
I´m not talking about the false prosperity gospel or teh word of faith heresy wich is indeed witchcraft and commonly taught today by second rate stage hypnotists such as Hagin, Hinn etc.
Hutch
I don’t think I suggested that the post maintained a name it and claim it stance,sir.
The propsperty gospel is not inine with Scripture.
OK.
Can we as believers do without something if we fail to ask, seek and knock as Christ taught?
Does something different happen if we pray than would happen if we did not pray?
Tunji,
You asked:
“To believe that our prayers,without God’s assent,will move mountains,is to descend into witchcraft.As the Lord’s prayer maintains,may His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
Can you explain that given my post not to mention I think Hutch asked a valid question.
Lionel
I think there has been a misunderstanding here,and do apologise for any misconception.I did not suggest that by our will Christians can make things happen,separate from God’s will,or that you said so in the post.I clearly did not refer to the post,but to those who hold this false viewpoint.
Hutch
1 The parable of the persistent widow teaches that we should be persistent in prayer,until we get an answer from heaven.This is a correct position,and that the believer in faith petiton the throne of grace.
However there are those who maintain that if we know God. Has heard our petition,and believe that He will answer it,why do we continue to babble repititively like pagans,against the directive of Jesus.
I am persuaded that neither stance is ‘wrong’.There are enough Bible passages to justify either stand.
2 Something different may happen if we pray than if we didn’t.It all depends on God’s svereign will.
Lionel,
Not sure where the question about defining the righteous man is coming from (based on what I said). (Mace Windu says…i sense a plan to trap the calvinist…
)
But, the positionally righteous (in God’s sight) are those who are justified by faith – as you said – “any believer who from day one upon being born again has the very imputed righteousness of Christ.” So, it is only these (believers) that are able to truly approach the throne of God in prayer.
God answering one way or another is different. God hears and answers according to His will (e.g., 1 John 5:14-15; James 4:15, Acts 18:21 speak to things happening only if the Lord wills).
And the Scripture does say that even the prayers of believers can be hindered by unrepentant sin (1 Peter 3:7, James 4:1-6; Psalm 66:17). I am convinced this doesn’t matter if you are a babe or mature to have your prayers answered or hindered. If they are according to His will, the will be answered. If there is unrepentant sin in your life
So, the positionally righteousness who grow progressively in moral righteousness –
In the providence and purposes of God…He does answer prayer…this is all (even the prayers unanswered) are according to purpose and intention.
God uses our prayer to affect change so he can be glorified. Otherwise, we can claim some action we did or some natural cause, but answered prayer both reinforces our faith and glorifies God to others as we say, “Hey! I prayed about that and God answered in the affirmative!”
God doesn’t always answer in the affirmative. These are the times he tries our faith. Sometimes he does this to help focus us on his will when we are not praying according to his will.
Me: “God please give me a million dollars.”
God: “My grace is sufficient. I will provide your needs. Trust me. Do not trust a million dollars to provide your need.”
I could either respond with: “God didn’t help me out by giving me a million dollars, therefore I won’t trust him anymore,” or “I will trust you God.” Then when my needs are met, I can say, “God met my needs. I didn’t need a million dollars.” If I respond with a lack of faith, then I do so outside of God’s revealed will and I will eventually be shown to be a fool. Either way, God will be glorified.
So, God works both ways, but always to his glory.
Hey Jim,
How are you brother? Let me put the question this way. Is all of what God does today already decided in eternity past and fully decreed by God? Or in other words whe Hezekiah prayed had it already been determined what God was going to do for Him (not foreknowledge but fully decreed)?
Lionel
May I attempt an answer on behalf of Jim.I think that we are free moral agents and thus have a choice in our life decisions.I believe God decrees all things and that although our specific prayers may change His mind,this falls within a pattern already decreed by God.
You may wish to consider for example that the initial prophesied destruction of Nineveh was halted by prayer,but was fulfilled generations later.