This is not a post to minimize or degrade the work of a Pastor. At all! But it is a genuine post about things I wrestle with. Especially as of lately (6 months or so maybe 9 months). As I struggle through what it means to be a Christian, how I am to live as a Christian and how I am to live and serve with others who are Christian, I usually end up with more questions than answers. Most of those questions is due to what I was taught to believe and why I should believe it. One of those questions that keep coming up is leadership within Christianity. Notice I didn’t say local church. Paul was an Apostle in Galatia just as he was an Apostle in Ephesus. So again I am trying to blend what happened in scripture to what happens today. So I have drafted some questions, or thoughts, ramblings, and such. If you are a pastor, was a pastor or desire to be a pastor I would love to hear from you.
1. What makes you a pastor?
2. Why should I submit to you as a pastor?
3. Are you just a pastor in the church you are in or in other churches also? If so how?
4. As a pastor what is your job?
5. Why did you decide to become a pastor?
I ask those questions genuinely. Here is why. Today there are many people who call themselves pastors and they use the bible as their defense. The problem is they don’t become Pastors (I use that interchangeably with Elders because that is the norm today) the way the bible sets up pastors. In 1 Timothy and Titus, Paul goes and tells Timothy and Titus to select elders to lead those congregations. They were actually commissioned by Paul. Who commissions such a task today? I guess I am asking who appointed the person who appointed you and can you trace back to those Timothy and Titus selected? If not then why should you be a pastor?
The next two questions are why should I submit to you? Or better yet why shouldn’t you submit to me? Is it more bible knowledge? Today in 99.9% of Reformed or Bible circles that is the answer. Seminary separates the haves from the have nots or the leaders from the nonleaders. But the question again is why should I or anyone else submit to you? And what if we decide not to? I am not against seminary as I think it enlightens many towards the great doctrines of God. The next question is what if a Pastor from another church comes in to your church? Do you submit to him? If not why? Should I submit to an elder from another congregation that isn’t associated with mine? Isn’t an Elder in the Church of God in Christ an elder in the Baptist church since we are one “universal” Church?
4. The next question is what is your job as a Pastor? Is it what the church that pays you draw up as a job description? What do you do that makes you a pastor or better yet is what you do make you a pastor or is it your “position” or “office’ that make you do what you do? Would you do what you do if it were not in your job description or if you weren’t paid to do it? By the way why should you get paid? What is it that you do, that other Christians should do and if nothing why aren’t they paid for it? Shouldn’t we pay Sunday School teachers and other Christians who visit sick Christians and study their bible and pray for the church and teach other Christians? What exactly do you do or don’t do for that matter that makes you a pastor?
5. Finally what makes you a pastor? Did someone tell you that? Was it some warm and fuzzy feeling that made you say “I want to get paid to be a Christian”? Did someone in school convince you of this? Was it someone at your church that convinced you that you should do this “professionally” and go to school to validate it? Did people come to you and say “hey we want you to be our leader”? Did you take the initiative in becoming a pastor? Did your church nominate you due to your work of service there? Or did a group of elders like the amount of information you had and suggested you take the next step? Why do you do what you do? Would you do it all for free (like Jesus LOL).
Again these are genuine questions as I discern God’s call on my life. I don’t know if I should be a pastor or if I shouldn’t. I have been told I should go to seminary in one group of churches because of my passion in other churches (Charismatic circle) I took Jesus and holiness seriously (I was quite the legalist and still can be, got to put that dude under the cross) so they would prophesy over me and say I will be a preacher one day. I guess we all come to this crossroads and wanted to know from you: when, where, why and how!
I guess I see no real reason to “become” a pastor officially but I see many reasons to pastor functionally. I see no real reason to do this professionally when I can do this function while holding a normal job, thus having more opportunities to pastor more people. I see no special calling other than a gifting to shepherd but this again seems more functional to me. Other than the great burden of serving others like Jesus: washing their feet, healing them, feeding them, protecting them even at the cost of one’s own life, and a “desire” (as Paul writes) to do such a thing, I don’t understand why anyone would want this task.
So pastor! What makes you a pastor really if it is Jesus is it revocable? Is Jesus an Indian (excuse the word) giver? I anticipate your responses.
man…you’re asking for a book bro…”An Biblical Introduction and Basis for the Pastoral Ministry and Office Vol 1 – 3″!!! I think I’ll have to put that out one day!
But, these are good questions…we can never assume any particular doctrine in the church. I think you have either said this or alluded to it, that ecclesiology is a very neglected doctrine and I believe it is an assummed doctrine. Ecclesiology is, and is going to be, a much debated and challenged doctrine in this generation (now where would I get such an idea???
)
Once finals are over this week I’ll put something together and send it to you (or post it on my blog)…
Jude 2,
Q
Lionel,
I’ll try to answer your questions.
1. I love and serve and care for people (pastor). Why? Honestly, it can only be the work of God in my life. I used to be extremely introverted. I would prefer to stay in my office all day with the door closed. Now… I love to be around, listen to, serve, take care of people. So, I would have to say that the Holy Spirit makes me pastor. This has nothing to do with the title “pastor”. I would pastor whether or not I was recognized as an elder.
2. You shouldn’t submit to me. You should submit to God. If you consider me a good example of a servant and a follower of Christ, then you should follow my example.
3. I attempt to pastor anyone that God brings across my path, whether they recognize me with any special title or position or not.
4. Well, I think I’ve answered this one in my previous answers. I do not have a “job” as a pastor. I pastor because that is what God is doing in my life. What do I do? I love and care for people. I serve them. I help them. I attempt to help them mature in Christ.
5. I didn’t decide to become a pastor. For me, to stop pastoring (caring for people) would be like trying to stop breathing. The church recognized me as an elder, but I was already pastoring – which is why they recognized me as an elder.
I hope my answers were not too confusing.
-Alan
By the way, Lionel, its very interesting that published this post today (well, yesterday now), considering the post that I published today (but wrote last week): “Just Semantics? (Pastor)“.
-Alan
I’ve wanted to know about the seminary thing. Does it qualify you as an elder if you go to seminary? I know the scripture is clear on what qualifies an elder, but why does seminary seem to make a pastor a pastor? It is a question I have always wanted to know about. I was teaching bible study once and a woman asked me had I been to seminary because I mentioned biblical hermenutics and ecclesiology etc etc. Where did this thought come from that seminary (ex. going to the Master’s College) defines whether you can be a pastor or leader in the church? (I ask these questions based on what I have seen in some churches etc)
Lionel do you have an idea of what seminary is for? I am not against it, I just am asking more about it. God bless bro.
Karsten Miller
Q,
I wait patiently
Alan,
So you would do it for free?
Lionel,
I do not charge people to care for them. So, yes, I would pastor for free, and I DO pastor for free.
-Alan
KM,
If I follow it historically it was a work of the Roman Catholic church to produce students of “The Church” when the Reformers came around they followed the model but only to produce students of the “Reformed Church”. So the story goes. The DTS guys, The Westminster guys……….. each man felt he had some truth that should be reproduced so they went through the hardwork of turning out man who would be faithful to teaching the bible. Most splintered from other Seminaries who they didn’t agree with. Once Yale and Harvard became “liberal” other seminaries who were faithful came on the scene.
At the end of the day seminary doesn’t qualify you for anything, just like college doesn’t qualify you for anything. You have taken test, written papers and preached sermons that allow others to evaluate you on man’s standard of what information one should have. As I look at the instructions Paul gives to both Timothy and Titus on what qualities and what type of Charachter one should have I don’t think Seminary makes the list.
Can seminary be beneficial? Sure! It also can be just as much as a hinderance. Especially since I know many who are in seminary and have been trained in seminary who I would consider immature. I also don’t want to minimize the good of seminary because there are many who think the Devil started it.
At the end of the day, I have decided to not judge a man based on the amount of knowledge he holds but on the amount of knowledge he applies. James says “wisdom comes from God” he later explains what that wisdom looks like in action. Let me know which of these seminary produces:
Alan,
LOL!!!!@
“I don’t charge people to care for them”! LOL
Bruh, if you feel a call on your life to ministry, just make sure what call you’re specifically being called for. Not all “calls” are intended to be pulpit ministry type of calls, for in the end, we as christians are all called to the ministry.
So again, make sure that your call is the type of call that would one towards a pastoral ministry, as opposed to the ministry you have now.
Secondly, I hear your concerns about the role(s) of a pastor, but I wouldn’t sweat it too intensely, for I don’t feel it’s all that deep. If you’re called to be a sheperd/pastor of a church congregation, then follow the traditional guidelines of how the pastor is configured in today’s society, and preach the gospel and other biblical truths. Because in the end, it’s all about the intent of your ministry, as oppose to the letter of the law, per se.
It’s interesting how you bring up folks being ordained by a body, or someone with the authority in the ministry, because to some, this is the justification for having bishops.
I presently see the world of protestantism leaning towards an episcopal like structure of leadership, in that the churches are ruled by Bishops. Black pentecostal churches also have this structure, where their churches are ran by Bishops, and pastors, or ordained ministers, referred to as Elders.
Seekerman can you explain some of the stuff you said?
1. A Call to Pulpit Ministry. Where do you find that in scripture?
2. You said follow the “traditional” guidelines. Shouldn’t we follow biblical guidelines?
Seekerman you typed:
“for I don’t feel it’s all that deep.”
1. What don’t you feel is all that deep? and…
2. Why?
i did not choose the title. the people just call me that.
i dont get paid.
although i try to give money, food and clothes to the people that call me pastor.
i ask no one to submit to me, but to the Word of God.
i don’t have a church. its street, bars and parking lots.
church is the body of Christ.
other pastors don’t like to visit where i share the gospel. i do try to submit to other brethren in the body of Christ.
i work to pay the bills.(self employed custidial work 25 years)
i do not get paid for the time i “shepherd”. my passion is to disciple and share the love of Christ.
i usually don’t comment.
abundant Blessings
Frankie G
A biker for Christ
Frankie G you said:
“i dont get paid.
although i try to give money, food and clothes to the people that call me pastor”
Thats funny that sounds sort of like what Paul was commissioning the Elders to do in Acts 20 around verse 32 or so.
lionel,
i know the version will bother you, but i sort of like the sound of this..
Acts 20:33-35 (MSG)
33 “I’ve never, as you so well know, had any taste for wealth or fashion.
34 With these bare hands I took care of my own basic needs and those who worked with me.
35 In everything I’ve done, I have demonstrated to you how necessary it is to work on behalf of the weak and not exploit them. You’ll not likely go wrong here if you keep remembering that our Master said, ‘You’re far happier giving than getting.’ ”
I have learned alot from that Paul guy..
Blessings
Frankie G
Lionel said:
Seekerman can you explain some of the stuff you said?
1. A Call to Pulpit Ministry. Where do you find that in scripture?
My response:
Do I have to find the exact wording in the Bible, or the concept in the Bible, to make it a legitimate “ministry.” Stop straining at this gnat, and pulling your hair out. You’ve been around long enough to know that when the word “pulpit ministry” is utilized, folks are usually referring to the ministry of pastors.
Lionel said:
2. You said follow the “traditional” guidelines. Shouldn’t we follow biblical guidelines?
My response:
We should strive to “follow biblical guidelines,” but many times the interpretation of the “biblical guidelines,” can be overreaching, and subjective, or even cultural.
Bro. Lawrence D. quoted me as saying:
“for I don’t feel it’s all that deep.”
Then posed this question:
1. What don’t you feel is all that deep? and…
My response:
Read my post in full, and you will understand, or properly discern what I’m referring to
He also asked:
2. Why?
My response:
Because the issues he raised aren’t heaven or hell issues. That’s why.
Seeker,
You are only concerned about Heaven and Hell issues? Well that is the Gospel. Lets read John 3:16 and not discuss anything else. That was easy.
Hi Lionel, here are my thoughts
1. What makes you a pastor?
A gifting from God affirmed by His church.
morethancake.org/2008/08/elders-lead-healthy-family-gifted-by.html
2. Why should I submit to you as a pastor?
You should submit to me in the same way I am called to submit to you… as a brother in Christ.
3. Are you just a pastor in the church you are in or in other churches also? If so how?
I believe there is a pastoral gifting, just like any other gifting from the Spirit for the edification of the Body… so to that extent I would be a pastor in any local Body where I used my gifting to serve and “shepherd”.
4. As a pastor what is your job?
Use my life to edify the Body of Christ and help it grow into maturity.
5. Why did you decide to become a pastor?
Obedience to God’s design and calling on my life.
Joe,
Do you believe there are many pastors today who are not recognized what abot in yir fellowship?
How did you recognize your calling? Was it an emotional thing?
I am sure that there are people in congregations with a pastoral gifting who are not “recognized” by the existing leadership.
In our church Family, it is easy to recognize those who have a pastoral gifting, because they are the ones serving and doing the ministry of shepherding.
For me, there were adults in my life who saw the Holy Spirit working through me. When I was a teenager, I had a camp counselor speak a word of insight into my life… but I did not see it at that time. In college, I began to disciple a lot of young men and I did a lot of evangelism and I felt fulfilled when doing these things. My mentor affirmed a calling in my life as well. And now, the calling is recognized through my actions and affirmed by the Elders and people of my church-Family.
Thanks Joe.
No Lionel, we can discuss other issues, but when those issues get to where they cause undue, or gratuitous dissension, then the unity of the body must be taken into consideration.
It’s all about perspective, and prioritizing. Simply put, I don’t feel that God is going to send anyone to hell, or deprive anyone from salvation, just because they sit in a church, that has a pastor as leader…
I’m fine with discussing what is known as sensitive topics, but even in discussing sensitive topics, let’s be balanced in our applications.