As you may know, I am not of the conviction that the Charismatic (still haven’t found this distinction in the Scriptures yet) Gifts ceased. I believe that they are in full operation today for the Church and until Christ returns for His bride when the Church will no longer need to be built. I believe the case against them isn’t that strong hermeneutically or practically. Alan makes a good case for that in this post here . Here is a paragraph from that post:
Similarly, in Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 32, Paragraph 4, Irenaeus writes:
If, however, they maintain that the Lord, too, performed such works simply in appearance, we shall refer them to the prophetical writings, and prove from these both that all things were thus predicted regarding Him, and did take place undoubtedly, and that He is the only Son of God. Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practising deception upon any, nor taking any reward (Acts 8:9, 18) from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely (Matthew 10:8) from God, freely also does she minister [to others].
Once again, Irenaeus using living examples. He points to brothers and sisters in Christ who cast out demons, see visions, prophesy, heal the sick, and raise the dead. In fact, in this passage, Irenaeus uses current examples (in his day) of miracles as evidence that Christ actually performed miracles. This would not have been a very good argument if the miracles were not obvious to his readers.
What do you think?
I believe that God’s Spiritual gifts are still being manifested today. To what extent? I don’t know. Are all the gifts still operating? Again, I don’t know. However, there are an abundance of lying signs and wonders that the Bible warns us of (so called slaying in the spirit, speaking in babble-not tongues, etc.). The problem with many Charasmatic/Pentecostal Christians thelogy is the belief that God has promised us all physical healing in this age. They will use scriptures such as “by His stripes we are healed” to claim that God has promised physical healing for us now. Unfortunaltely they don’t understand that this scripture and others like it are referring to spritual healing to deal with the spiritual sickness of sin. This has led countless people into a false hope. The “miracle/healing business” is huge!
Lionel,
Hey brother my answer is go to Africa or some other country where there aren’t proper medical doctors etc..
I believe in the gifts. I came out of the Charismatic format and don’t follow all of the old thoughts. I do believe tongues are still in use today. I believe in miracles. The perfect (Jesus) has not come back yet and as such the gifts have not ceased at all. No extent needed they are fully operational. It is just so much unbelief in the traditional church has caused a lot of things that are of God to be thrown out or given credit to modern medicine etc. Again I don’t attain to the abusiveness as some penecostal movements. Why did Jesus use the gifts? He used them to testify that He was God and was sent from God. So people would want to hear the gospel. Why do I feel the gifts are still for today? So that when we go out people will be willing to hear the gospel and believe. Althoug just as in Jesus days there are those who just want the signs and wonders and no gospel. There is the balance.
Take care…going fishing for the rest of the night.
Steven
I agree. Would you like to make a guest post of this on my blog Promise of the Father?
Read some of the content of my research and let me know.
Good post. I read Dr. Jack Deere’s book “Suprised By The Power of The Spirit” several years ago and felt he made a strong case against cessaionist. I know that several books have now been written against Deere’s book but I believe his arguements are still valid and strong. Cessasionist, as Deere points out, works from experience and not from Scripture and their own theology blinds them from seeing miracles and other gifts of the Spirit from being in operation in their lives.
Hey brother. I’m what you’d call a Reformed Charismatic — and I’m in good company. Piper, Mahaney, Driscoll… woot!
An awesome resource is Sam Storms’ website enjoyinggod.com — he’s written a couple of books on the subject and does seminars and things pretty regularly. Great guy, theologically solid, used to be a cessationist but then “saw the light.”
I’m sure you know the Spurgeon stories. He was a hard-core cessationist, but if you read about his ministry, the miraculous gifts were in operation — prophecy and words of knowledge and wisdom happened a TON just in the course of his preaching!
Yeah I had Enjoying God up but my links were to fat and I believe overwhelming. So I took a few down, espcially the nationally known ones.
I am praying that God would put these Gifts on display in the life of the Church so that Christ would be glorified. Though our unity and love for one another is the greatest display. How have you been by the way?
Lionel,
Clearly,authentic miracles continue today.I certainly do not subscribe to the cessasionist viewpoint.The real difficulty is in separating the fake from the real.Which is from God and which is from Satan?
In Nigeria there is a particular congregation that showcases outstanding miracles.But many have quite openly accused the Pastor involved of being an agent of Satan.Yet the thousands of visitors continue to pour into the country in search of a miraculous healing.
Clearly there is need of more discernment in the Spirit,in this day and age.
Hey Steve,
I still don’t understand that position I only believed it because men I respected believed it. The scriptures teach differently.
Joe,
I would love to.
Tunji,
I believe those who use these gifts to glorify themselves and not for the sake of the community and to point others to Jesus are fake plain and simple.
I think we can look at the fruit of what they are trying to accomplish and immediately recognize that they aren’t using them to build up the household of faith but their own praise.
Lionel,
Brother where did you get the comment “I only believed because men I repected believed it.”
That didn’t come out of my post!
Steven
SO,
I was speaking of myself. I became a cessasionist for a brief period because of my pastors. I studied for myself and came to a different conclusion.
Lionel, I got you, I misread your comment.
SOwen