Let me first say that I am an advocate of the permanence of marriage. This is a position that is rare amongst believer’s to say the least. John Piper also holds this position linked here. Not as if Piper is the final point of arbitration-for he is not. I linked it so you would be able to read his stance to get an idea of what I am talking about here. My stance is a lot more exhaustive but at least you’ll get an idea from reading his article on the matter. I have had a formal debate about the matter with my dearly beloved brother from Stand Up Ministries-Saiko Woods already and really don’t want to argue about it anymore-but just thought I would share. Let me tell you a story and see if you can imagine what you would do…..
Your beautiful wife(or husband) of 3 years finds out that she is pregnant!! You are both estatic over the matter and start to make preparations for the new child. You and your spouse have already agreed that she will stay home for a few years and you will work. So the man gets 3 jobs to slowly peck away at the debt and the wife searches for work to do at home on the computer all while making preparations to eventually come home from her day job. Soon enough the beautiful child is born and all seems to be going well. The good news is that you are making the ends meet with your 3 jobs but the bad news is that your relationship is dwindling because you are never at home with the family.
The husband realized this is not working as planned so the wife searches for work outside the home again since the at home computer thing just isn’t working out. The husbands approves of her new found job and they work opposite shifts in order to have round the clock care for the baby. In the time you took preparing for the baby-you also pull your family from a heavy word of faith-prosperity-seeker sensitive church and in retrospect, this move; strengthened your faith and weakened your spouses. You realize that the Lord spoke to you and saved you through this ordeal and in the process realized that your spouse is not a believer.
In the course of the next 3 months the relationship continues to dwindle and your spouse drops the bomb!! “I commited adultery!” Ironically(sovereign grace) enough you have been studying how to be a better spouse and how that is liken unto Christ and His Church. You now being a believer understand that when you recieve truth it must be followed by action, fueled by love-otherwise it is meaningless or useless. What to you do? Do you take the “Exception Clause” view and run for the hills as if you have not been a sinner who was dispatched an unlimited amount of grace or do you see this as an excusable reason to divorce your spouse? On the one hand you say, ” This is messed up Lord and this is NOT what I signed up for!” on the other you say, “What an extraordinary way to be like Christ and bask in the fellowship of His suffering.”
You see how your spouse has become the total opposite of what you had come to know and love and scriptures run through your mind regarding persecution and how the Lord said “I have not come to bring Peace…..” Listen here…
The Dictionary or the world defines love as this;
A deep, tender, ineffable “feeling” of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.
A feeling of intense desire and attraction toward a person with whom one is disposed to make a pair; the emotion of sex and romance.
How does this contrast with the Biblical Worldview of Love? Let us look and see.
1 Corinthians 13(emphasis mine)
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
First let me say; Isn’t it ironic how truth is connected to love? No coincidence here. Truth is conformity with fact and reality or whatever corresponds to reality. The type of love we see in these passages are rarely seen in our culture today. Yes we see couples who are happy and love without limits but are they manifesting true Biblical love? We see couples continuously getting divorces over ridiculous things. Most commonly we see divorces due to selfishness. In our culture people love and they will say it is unconditional but when something goes not according to their plan they retract their love like a rattle snake after a vicious strike to its victim. Really their love for you is tied to how they perceive your love for them. This is NOT Biblical Love, it is love centered around their own selfish will. Let me pause and say, “I have not arrived and I am learning this daily in my marriage and my wife can be a witness to this fact” I have seen enormous flaws in my past with the way I loved my wife and people in general and it is always tied to how I am treated versus how I would like to be treated regardless of their reaction towards me. You see our relationship to God is first and to people second. The way we treat people is a direct correlation of our understanding and obedience to God.
James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God.
In this James hits the nail on the head. We are self-centered by our Adamic nature from birth but we are now striving after the qualities and nature of Christ and they are contrary to this world. If you look into your life, just think how putting the needs of others would make a difference in every situation. This is no way makes men passive or feminized, it on the contrary emulates the attributes of Christ with love and truth hand and hand; you see it can be no other way. For example-If you love your friend or family member, your love for them compels you to tell them the truth about their corrupt state, that is true love.
John 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last.(emphasis mine)
1 Peter4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation. 14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.(emphasis mine)
Being in Love-I have come to the realization that this is not a Biblical Term. Biblical Love is never a state. Love is always a commitment, a choice, or an action. So the Bible crucifies what we call “In Love”, in this we see people say they fall out of love or fall into love as if it is some magical hole in the air. Love is something totally(maybe not totally but in conjunction with) aside from our fickle emotions. If you look at people in the Bible in Acts, at the time of conversion you very rarely see any documentation of emotions tied to their salvation aside from joy and happiness in their suffering in which they see it as an honor to be counted worthy to suffer for HIM. We are to Love our wives as Christ Loves the church and love one another as our self. If love is simply tied to feeling or sex, when we have hard times the marriage will diminish and a allegory can be made from that to how we see the false gospel preached and when people go through storms of life(in which the Bible promises persecution to every true believer) they fade away.(parable of the Sower)
Analyze your love in the face of the truth of God’s infallible Word. I assure you that you will see a immediate need for a change in the way you deal with people and not just your spouse. Remember your horizontal relationships are just a reflection of your vertical relationship with the Creator of all. In Christ
Lionel, I have two scenarios of my own. Could you answer them and help me understand your view?
Scenario 1:
A young and woman who are not Christian get married. Their marriage ends in divorce. Several years later the man becomes a Christian and receives the grace of Christ and forgiveness of sins.
Is it your contention that he must bear the guilt of his past life and sinful decisions for the remainder of his life. Is it your view that this man, now a new creation in Christ, is unable to remarry without entering into further sin?
Scenario 2:
A Christian man is married and divorced and gets remarried. He has been raised a Christian, but never was raised to believe that all remarriage is a sin. He starts going to your house church and embraces your teaching that all remarriage is adultary.
Is it your contention that he is now in a perpetual state of adultery and there is no forgiveness? Is it a sin every time he has sex with his second wife, since God commanded he should not marry again? Where does grace fit into your theology of all remarriage is adultery?
Could a man in either situation be an Elder in the church?
Would you permit someone in this state of adultery to teach or lead in a church or are they disqualified for their ongoing sin of adultery?
I ask because these are real situations I have faced and I have faced them with brothers who hold to Piper’s view. Thanks brother.
Lionel did not write this article-so i will assume these questions are directed to me(Tyris).
This is going to get messy…I think I decieved myself by writing this and thinking that these questions would not occur…LOL
Ok your first scenario.
1. Once becoming a believer-do we bear the guilt of our past sins or do we proceed to live our life for Christ? Yes I do believe according to scripture that if he would enter into another marriage unless his wife was deceased-he would be entering into sin.
2. This question is weird to me when you said…Where does grace fit into your theology of all remarriage is adultery? My theology?LOL…. Not even sure how to tackle that one… No I would not advise this person to commit another sin and leave his wife or family. He would ask God to forgive him for his past sins and live his life with his spouse.
I personally can’t think of what this has to do with becoming an elder..You-I assume are speaking of the passages written to Timothy in which this instruction is QUALITATIVE AND NOT QUANITATIVE. For example if a man’s wife dies and gets remarried he would not be disqualified based on exceeding the number of wives.
I really didn’t want to hash this out knowing that I do not have time to go at it all day on here-since I am at work now writing this, but maybe I should have explained myself clearer when i made these objective stances. The whole debate of this matter is based on(as you may have read in Piper’s article) Matthew 5:32 and mainly 19:9. A book is coming out soon on this topic and I can’t wait because every question that i will be asked and have been asked is in this book.
Forgive me, I don’t have a computer right now and will not have access again until Friday-so I will try to address other questions at that time-thanks for the comments though and good questions-in which I probably did not answer thouroughly. God Bless
Man Tyris, it has been awhile. Seems like you’ve come out of retirement like MJ (lol).
If biblical love was taking place with more of us, the divorce rates would be exceptionally low. Why is forgiveness of trepasses not the first avenue when it comes to adultery, especially when the couple was committed to one another? I know some will say that they can forgive after divorce, but is not staying committed and forgiving even more effective towards edification?
Great post my friend
Karsten Miller
Yep Joe,
It is true I didn’t write it! Tyris is the subject matter expert and I am but wrestling through this issue, but I have flirted with this theological position for some time.
Joe,
Let me throw one back at you that is more realistic. A man and his wife are Christians. They know what Jesus says about divorce and remarriage. They outright know it is wrong to divorce and to be remarried. However, they have a fall out, they are irreconcilable and they go through the divorce because they just refuse to serve and submit to one another. The wife has stayed at the church and the husband has moved on. She falls in love with a Godly man, who loves the Lord and decides they want to pursue marriage.
1. Do you tell them no, this is adultrey and if you proceed with this we must put you under the discipline of the church?
2. Do you provide them Grace that the bible never says you have the right to extend them and allow them to be married against the direct command of scripture and invite them into the fellowship?
Sorry I missed the post author, but thanks for the heads up guys.
Tyris, thanks for your honest answers.
The Elder question comes from a very specific story in my life. In Scenario 1, I had a friend who was Elder in the church. Prior to salvation, he had been divorced and remarried. Later he accepted Christ, grew to be a strong follower of Jesus and became an Elder in the Church. Another Elder, one who embraced Piper’s teaching, found out the history of the fist Elder and told him to his face that he was not qualified to be an Elder because he was divorced and remarried (I know this was said because I was sitting having coffee with both when this went down). To the Elder who held to Piper’s theology, even though this divorce and remarriage happened prior to salvation, he believed this guy was in a perpetual state of Adultery and rebellion against God and therefore unqualified to serve as an Elder. Is this guy right? Is that what you teach based on Piper’s theology?
Lionel, is my 2nd scenarios “unrealistic” or just inconvenient?
In your scenario, which I agree happens all the time, the couple is in obvious rebellion so don’t be silly by distorting my scenario to fit your theology. You paint an obvious picture of rebellion to distort my question about grace. I have come to expect more from our conversations.
Lionel, you may only know totally mature Christians, but there are some baby Christians who have come out of the world and who entered faith in Christ, with no maturity because they sit under bad teachers. You used to embrace WOF theology, so certainly you can understand that people of genuine faith don’t always have good theology. Right?
Or does conversion only count when one has a perfect understanding of divorce and remarriage? That sure seems to be the implication of your statement when you say my scenario is “unrealistic”, so please clarify this for me brother. Why do you find it necessary to dismiss the real-life experience of some Christians as unrealistic?
My 2nd scenario is talking about young in faith, brand new, baby Christians who get divorced and then remarry. Only later, after they learn from a teacher, like Piper, are they confronted by the idea that all remarriage in every circumstance is Adultery. So I am asking a legitimate question series of questions based on people I know. These questions are not designed to refute Piper’s teaching, I am asking them to help understand their implication from someone like yourself who I think is a thoughtful and intelligent brother in Christ.
Is a couple in this situation in a perpetual state of adultery? What should they do? Divorce and remarry their first spouse. Divorce the second spouse to “correct” their sin? Stop having sex, which is the act of adultery itself? Do they sin every time they have sex? These are all questions this couple wrestled with because these were specific things told to them by “teachers” who hold to some form of Piper’s theology.
These are totally legit questions when discussing Piper’s theology and I don’t understand why you would dismiss this true life story of real people with these real questions as “unrealistic” Why do you find it necessary to change the story to fit into your theology?
Joe,
Hold up bro. My apologies. I think you may have received my comment differently that it was intended. I don’t have a theology other than what Jesus writes in Matthew. I don’t know your position either that is why I posed the question. Now how do you respond to me one way but get mad at me! You know me better than that JM.
Now to answer your question.
Scenario 1:
Can he pursue the previous wife that he divorced? If so then why not do that? Why move past her? If she is remarried I believe under the state they were married they had bigger issues which were not being reconciled to God thus I would believe he has the freedom to remarry.
Scenario 2:
I am hard pressed to believe this is a realistic scenario. Maybe you don’t think so. But I believe someone along the way would have told him it was wrong to divorce his wife. Do you believe it is honestly possible that no one at all anywhere told him it would be wrong to divorce? This guy has never heard in his life that divorce and remarriage was wrong? I as a pagan knew this. I think Tyris believes the same way.
But just say this Chrisitian was totally oblivious to divorce and remarriage. If he violated God anyway outside of sound biblical care and was remarried then he is to stay in that marriage and honor his new wife and God.
I wasn’t blowing you off or being sarcastic. I just don’t believe that second scenairo is possible especially in America. Even before you get a divorce the lawyer tries to talk to you about it. Just very difficult for me to believe.
Not angry bro, just a little incredulous. Just trying to get to a deeper understanding and no matter what I still love ya’ brother
You cool with that?
First, since you have THE Biblical view of Matthew, are you suggesting that anyone who believes differently from your or Piper’s interpretation is not within the Pale of Orthodoxy?
Second, given your response to my Scenario 2, I gather it is your contention then that no pastor in the world teaches the “exception clause” and therefore nobody could even have a mistaken view of marriage, divorce and remarriage? Right? Nobody could ever be confused on the issue and therefore everyone knows that all remarriage is sin? Okay, I thought the entire premise of your post was the opposite? You bemoan the state of divorce in the church, but then reject the idea that someone might be taught to think divorce/remarriage is okay… you lost me here??? Am I missing the point of your posts on marriage?
I would point out that knowing divorce may be “wrong” in “some” cases, or that it may be socially unacceptable is not the same as saying it is a sin and not everyone believes this and not every church teaches this.
Despite your doubts, I have done some extensive counseling with folks in this situation and have a good understanding of what went on, but if you prefer to simply dismiss the reality of it.. not much more I can say.
Honestly, I was hoping to get some answers from your perspective on how you would approach this situation, but I guess your approach would be to tell the couple they are in denial of their sin, they knew the truth all along, and they are in rebellion against truth??? Am I close?
Maybe this is one of those things that just fail to come across in a blog format and is only possible in face to face conversation. Again, no anger brother, just trying to make sense of it all.
PS
Lionel, I would love to hear how you would approach the Elder situation I outlined above.
Thanks for your input brother.
Tyris,
Good observation linking love with truth. Truth is indeed foundational to true love.
Lionel,
You made a statement in a scenario where a brother and sister in Christ “know it is wrong to divorce and to be remarried” and have an irreconcilable falling out. Your question goes on to the particulars of the aftermath. You may agree with what I’m about to say, but I want to say explicitly that with Christ there are no irreconcilable differences. If a couple has a falling out from which there is no reconciling then between the two of them there is a failure of mutual submission: either the husband doesn’t love his wife as Christ loves the Church or the wife doesn’t respect her husband as the Church should respect Christ, or both. There is certainly a conscientious lack of repentance from someone if they “knew” what was sinful and chose to commit the sin to a state of relational permanence.
By the way, this issue is what sin does to the world in general: It lends an incoherence to the world that results in such quandaries.
Joe,
I am saying simply put before the person is to marry another simply tell them that they can’t and if they do, regardless of how much they love each other” then it is adultrey. Now if they are already married there is nothing for them to do but to stay with their current spouses and ensure this doesn’t happen again.
So let me ask you again Joe. Someone was married, they divorced their spouse and are now coming to you to be remarried. What do you tell them?
a. You were divorced for the wrong reason (I stand on the exception clause, I am not Tyris). Thus to remarry is to commit adultrey?
b. You are guys are so in love that I will marry you?
Those are the only two options that exist in my narrow world view. Either they can remarry or they can’t. If they were divorced in violation of the scriptures as believers, regardless of their ignorance they aren’t to remarry. One sin is not to be used to cover another. Either they remarry their former spouse or remain single. No options there Joe. We aren’t given any in scripture so I just can’t make up one. Now if they have alredy married then there is nothing I can do. They must repent and move forward, but if I marry them and I know they were divorced against God’s will then I join in their adultrous act.
As for Elders if a man has went through the process and repented then I believe he can be an Elder. I am giving a pass for ignornace, but not willing and permissive disobedience. If a man came into my church and he divorced his wife for his secreatary as a Christian I would be hard pressed make him an elder in my church.
Jim,
I agree brother.
Yes, dealing with pre-marital is much different than dealing with folks who are already married.
You asked, “So let me ask you again Joe. Someone was married, they divorced their spouse and are now coming to you to be remarried. What do you tell them?
a. You were divorced for the wrong reason (I stand on the exception clause, I am not Tyris). Thus to remarry is to commit adultrey?
b. You are guys are so in love that I will marry you?”
1. I accept the exception clause.
2. I also consider if the divorce is prior to becoming a Christian or after professing faith.
I do not make any decision to officiate over a wedding until I have done at least 4 weeks of pre-marital counseling and I tell folks that I always reserve the right, even at the end, to tell them to not get married and that I will not support the marriage.