Here is another thing I was talking with BLD about. I adhere to the Doctrines of Grace, but I also read my bible and I won’t let (or at least I will no longer let) theological presuppositions hinder my hermeneutic nor exposition of a text (that is why I posted the last post). So as you read the previous post here is another. I was reading through Peter and I came to this verse
17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
Now my Greek isn’t good enough to read this (hey Dr. Black I am in the verbs and stuff so I can read it I just don’t know what the heck it means LOL) or anything else for that matter and know what it means at least. So given the versions of the bible I have all of the translations pretty much translate this the same.
So my questions are:
1. What does escape mean?
2. Exactly what type of knowledge is this? Was this a knowing without faith? It is the same word used quite frequently to know for certain and sounds pretty salvific.
3. What does it mean to become entangled.
4. Finally why will it be worst than before? It seems like they were bad off, then they escaped “through the knowledge of Jesus Christ” and then they were entangled again, this second entanglement being worst that the first.
It seems if I am to take this verse seriously it is saying something that I disagree with. I appreciate the interaction.
I believe the key to understanding 2 Peter 2:17-22 is contained in 2 Peter 2:1-who is Paul speaking of-Believers, or false teachers/false prophets? Cross reference Jude and look at the similarity between the characteristics of those whom the book of Jude reference as “persons who have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for condemnation” and who Paul in 2 Peter calls false prophets who share the same destiny.
Maybe so Hutch but given this context I need to know what did they escape from, to, and why are they worse off?
1. What does escape mean?
By “our will” we have escaped from our the flesh and have given ourselves over to Christ, “For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved”
2. Exactly what type of knowledge is this? Was this a knowing without faith? It is the same word used quite frequently to know for certain and sounds pretty salvific.
I don’t think it was a faithless-knowledge; every man is given a measure of faith, the knowledge, Christ’s work
3. What does it mean to become entangled?
wraped up, in the cares of this world
4. Finally why will it be worst than before? It seems like they were bad off, then they escaped “through the knowledge of Jesus Christ” and then they were entangled again, this second entanglement being worst that the first.
Its worst because it’s “willful”, See the strongman
having the knowledge of the devine yet desire the world, one cannot serve two masters.
Lionel-
I see what you are asking. I am no Greek scholar, but I do like to cross reference the Revised Young’s Literal Translation as it is a strictly literal and idiomatic rendering of the Original Greek Texts.
Let’s look at how these folks are described.
2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
They are: false prophets, false teachers, destructive, denying their Master, quickly headed for destruction.
None of these things are spoke of as attributes of believers.
2:2 and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,
They: lead many into error and destruction, the give the truth a bad name
2:3 and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
They are: Covetous, they are tricky and sly they “mould’ their words, they make merchandise of God’s people, again they are headed quickly towards destruction.
2:4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved, 2:5 and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought, 2:6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set [them]; 2:7 and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue, 2:8 for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing. 2:9 The Lord has known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,
They: Will not escape the destruction that is fast approaching just like others who had the same characteristics did not escape judgment.
2:10 and chiefly those going behind the flesh in desire of uncleanness, and lordship despising; presumptuous, self-complacent, dignities they are not afraid to speak evil of, 2:11 whereas messengers, in strength and power being greater, do not bear against them before the Lord an evil speaking judgment;
They: are sexually immoral, they despise will not submit to authority/lordship, presumptuous, self-complacent, they speak evil of dignitaries or powers greater than they.
2:12 and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed — in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil — in their destruction shall be destroyed,
They are: irrational natural beasts (think of the natural unregenerate man), made to be caught and destroyed (believers are born again (supernaturally) given an incorruptible inheritance and will ultimately be conformed into the image of Christ), speak evil about things they know nothing about, again they are headed for destruction.
2:13 about to receive a reward of unrighteousness, pleasures counting the luxury in the day, spots and blemishes, luxuriating in their deceits, feasting with you,
2:14 having eyes full of adultery, and unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having an heart exercised in covetousnesses, children of a curse,
They are/have: to receive a reward for iniquity, carouse in the daytime, are spots and blemishes, boast in their deceit, eyes full of adultery, unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, their heart is exercised in covetousness, children of a curse (does not sound like a believer to me).
2:15 having forsaken a right way, they did go astray, having followed in the way of Balaam the [son] of Bosor, who a reward of unrighteousness did love,
They: Forsake the right way, follow after Balaam a false prophet who exploited and harmed the children of God for profit by teaching them to sin against God.
2:16 and had a rebuke of his own iniquity — a dumb ass, in man’s voice having spoken, did forbid the madness of the prophet.
See, dumb ass is biblical! Grin.
Balaam was warned by a dumb ass (no seriously a donkey miraculously speaking should have been a very convincing sign to Balaam that God was sending him a serious warning), but he sinned against God anyway. So to these false prophets Paul is speaking of knowingly exploit God’s people for profit.
2:17 These are wells without water, and clouds by a tempest driven, to whom the thick gloom of the darkness to the age has been kept;
They are: Wells without water promise to quench your thirst but leave you thirsty, God offers us living water that springs up into eternal life, clouds bring life giving rain, but these clouds are driven by a tempest and give no relief, again judgment and destruction is reserved for them.
2:18 for overswellings of vanity speaking, they do entice in desires of the flesh — lasciviousnesses, those who had truly escaped from those conducting themselves in error,
They: vainly speak and entice people back with the desires of the flesh and lasciviousness-look at the what the people they are trying to entice and draw back had escaped from: “those conducting themselves in error” this is not escaping from condemnation by being reconciled to God, but rather these false teachers are drawing people back into sinful lifestyles those who are trying to escape from “those who conduct themselves in error.” We know about this, people are always trying from time to time to reform themselves and their behavior and will attempt to avoid the influences of people who conduct themselves in error-it’s called the try harder false gospel of human effort and it fails. These false teachers draw those folks all the way back into lascivious lifestyles.
2:19 liberty to them promising, themselves being servants of the corruption, for by whom any one has been overcome, to this one also he has been brought to servitude,
They: promise liberty but actually deliver the opposite they ensnare people.
2:20 for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them has the last things worse than the first,
Escaped from what: “the pollutions of the world” by “acknowledging the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” –does acknowledging Jesus Christ save someone? Satan and his demons believe that Christ is God and the shudder, but they are not saved. You can acknowledge someone and not love them, obey them or revere them. Verse 10 says these false teachers are “lordship despising”. How is their condition worse? If they simply give mental ascent by only acknowledging Jesus for who he is like the demons do and have no intention of being in subjection to Christ by despising his authority/lordship from verse 10, then they have knowingly rejected their only means of hope and salvation. Someone who is ignorant of the way of salvation is better off as they still have an opportunity. Scripture also indicates a greater degree of torment for those who have rejected a greater degree of revelation. Kind alike when Jesus said that Sodom and Gomorrah will fare better than those who rejected Christ and saw him in person performing miracles that Jewish doctrine said that only the Messiah would be able to do, heal a man born blind etc. How exactly it will be worse for them, I do not know, the scripture does not elaborate, it just says it will be worse for them.
2:21 for it were better to them not to have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, than having acknowledged [it], to turn back from the holy command delivered to them,
See above under verse 20.
2:22 and happened to them has that of the true similitude; `A dog did turn back upon his own vomit,’ and, `A sow having bathed herself — to rolling in mire.’
People who try to clean up their act and escape from “those who conduct themselves in error “ and “the pollutions of the world” but who are not truly born again eventually forsake attempting to follow Christ and many times end up living a worst lifestyle than before. No mater how many times I wash my dog and clean him up, he still goes outside and gets dirty, sniffs crotches, east his vomit and some dogs even eat their own poo-thankfully mine does not do that, at least I tell myself he does not do that when he is licking my face.
But the point is that you can clean up a dog or a pig but they are not really the pampered pseudo children we think they are, they are still dogs and pigs and they do what dogs and pigs do by natural instinct, likewise unregenerate unbelievers even though they try to clean up their act so to speak they are really still just unregenerate unbelievers (especially those identified as false etchers and false prophets who Paul is speaking of) who by nature do what unbelievers do. Believers on the other hand are new creations in Christ.
No, I am certain that Paul is speaking about unbelievers and false teachers how were never born again as opposed to someone who is saved losing his salvation. The descriptive terms are consistent throughout.
That’s how I see it.
What’s a false etcher you may ask? Well, make that a false teacher. Grin.
The Dog returning to his vomit is where it is at. Now I see that though they escaped total pollution their nature was never changed. They had no great exchange in nature. But they escaped through the knowledge of Jesus. However, was never transformed. I think this may be very closely paralled to Matthew 13. What do you think?
Thanks a bunch.
Notice in verse 2:17 “These are wells without water, and clouds by a tempest driven, to whom the thick gloom of the darkness to the age has been kept; ”
DARKNESS TO THE AGE – NOT EVERLASTING/ETERNAL
I’m glad Hutch quoted from Young’s Literal Translation. I’ve been trying to convey this important yet greatly misunderstood truth for some time now. This helps us to understand better what God has in store for the age(s) to come.
Hutch said:
“If they simply give mental ascent by only acknowledging Jesus for who he is like the demons do and have no intention of being in subjection to Christ by despising his authority/lordship from verse 10, then they have knowingly rejected their only means of hope and salvation.”
In this age they may not become totally subjected to Christ. But in the age(s) to come all will eventually be subjected to Christ (drawn to Christ/Second Death/Lake of Fire).
Now scriptures such as the one Lionel initially quoted and others seem to point to the fact that a person can partake of the Holy Spirit and later return to living in the flesh.
Consider these scriptures:
Heb 6:1-15
1Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,
2of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of JUDGEMENT-AGE DURING,
3and this we will do, if God may permit,
4for [it is] impossible for those ONCE ENLIGHTENED, HAVING TASTED ALSO OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND PARTAKERS HAVING BECAME OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
5AND DID TASTE THE GOOD SAYING OF GOD,the powers also of the COMING AGE,
6AND HAVING FALLEN AWAY, AGAIN TO RENEW [THEM] TO REFORMATION, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.
7For earth, that is drinking in the rain many times coming upon it, and is bringing forth herbs fit for those because of whom also it is dressed, doth partake of blessing from God,
8and that which is bearing thorns and briers [is] disapproved of, and nigh to cursing, whose end [is] for burning;
9and we are persuaded, concerning you, beloved, the things that are better, and accompanying salvation, though even thus we speak,
10for God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the labour of the love, that ye shewed to His name, having ministered to the saints and ministering;
11and we desire each one of you the same diligence to shew, unto the full assurance of the hope unto the end,
12that ye may not become slothful, but followers of those who through faith and patient endurance are inheriting the promises.
13For to Abraham God, having made promise, seeing He was able to swear by no greater, did swear by Himself,
14saying, `Blessing indeed I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee;’
15and so, having patiently endured, he did obtain the promise;
And consider these scriptures:
2 Peter 1:1-11
1Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, TO THOSE WHO DID OBTAIN A LIKE PRECIOUS FAITH WITH US IN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST:
2Grace to you, and peace be multiplied IN THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF GOD AND OF JESUS OUR LORD!
3As all things to us His divine power (the things pertaining unto life and piety) hath given, THROUGH THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF HIM WHO DID CALL US through glory and worthiness,
4through which to us the most great and precious promises have been given, that through these ye may become partakers of a divine nature, having escaped from the corruption in the world in desires.
5And this same also — all diligence having brought in besides, SUPERADD IN YOUR FAITH (ADD TO YOUR FAITH)the worthiness, and in the worthiness the knowledge,
6and in the knowledge the temperance, and in the temperance the endurance, and in the endurance the piety,
7and in the piety the brotherly kindness, and in the brotherly kindness the love;
8for these things being to you and abounding, do make [you] neither inert nor unfruitful IN REGARD TO THE ACKNOWLEDGING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,
9for he with whom these things are not present is blind, dim-sighted, having become forgetful of the CLEANSING OF HIS OLD SINS;
10wherefore, the rather, brethren, BE DILIGENT TO MAKE STEDFAST YOUR CALLING AND CHOICE (ELECTION), for these things doing, ye may never stumble,
11for so, richly shall be superadded to you the entrance into the AGE – DURING REIGN of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
NOTICE I ALL CAPS KEY INFO IN THE TEXT
From these scriptures and many others we must come to the logical conclusion that one can begin to walk in newness of life (walk according to the spirit/word – become alive to God and dead to sin-second death – become overcomers of sin) and then later completly turn back to living in the flesh (alive to sin and dead to God – overcome by sin).
Jon Paden
Don’t get me wrong, we are secure in Christ (sealed with the Holy Spirit). However, we do still have an obligation to deny the flesh and follow Christ daily.
Scriptures such as Romans 8:35-39 speak of external influences that cannot separate us from Christ. However we still have free will to decide to no longer walk according to the spirit and thus separate ourselves from Christ salvation.
35Who shall separate us from the love of the Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36(according as it hath been written — `For Thy sake we are put to death all the day long, we were reckoned as sheep of slaughter,’)
37but in all these we more than conquer, through him who loved us;
38for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
39nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, that [is] in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Notice again ALL EXTERNAL INFLUENCES!
Jon Paden
I’m only adding onto what Jon just said. If God truly loves us, then he is not going to drag anyone, kicking and screaming, into his kingdom. We can rest in the knowledge that he will never let go of us, but be sobered by the reality that we can push him away….
Jon said: In this age they may not become totally subjected to Christ. But in the age(s) to come all will eventually be subjected to Christ (drawn to Christ/Second Death/Lake of Fire).
Hutch says: I just want to go on the record to state that I am not a Universalist and do not agree with Jon’s conclusions. None of my comments indicate the belief that all will one day be saved.
Everything will one day including all human being be completely subjected to Christ, but not in a saving way.
Unfortunately, the truth is that the vast majority of humanity will reject Christ and will be subject to Him as he commands them to depart from Him into everlasting judgment and torment.
As believers, those of us who post on this blog cannot let such statements stand lest it draw others away from the truth.
Jon, my hope and prayer is that you will accept the truth of the gospel and turn from you current path, I get no pleasure in saying that the verses discussed above are addressing false teachers such as you.
Stop teaching your heresy
It’s not too late, repent and turn to Christ today.
Hutch,
I have went back and forth with Mr. Jon Paden for sometime now. Jon knows the deal.
Hutch,
I really appreciatie your sincerity in what you last posted to me. However, I already am a believer in Christ. I too am continously at war with my flesh trying to walk in the spirit daily. Your current understanding of what the gospel message is about, to me is off from what the scriptures (old and new) teach. I use to believe similar to you, that eternal/everlasting judgement meant forever that those who did not overcome the flesh through Christ in this age, were surely to burn in a literal hell fire forever. I would greatly recommend that you revisit this extremely important subject on what hell, lake of fire, second death, judgement of the ages (mistranslated into eternal/everlasting judgement) is all about.
But always remember that everyone must ultimately be convinced in their own minds when it comes down to their current understanding of scripture.
Jon Paden
Jon,
You said:
I then ask:
1. What if I believe Jesus was a woman?
2. What if I believe that the ressurection wasn’t real just a metaphor?
This statement is dangerous in every way possible? It does not come down to their “current understanding” it comes down to the truth of scripture Jon.
Next I also believe that you deny the Gospel and redefine thus you have a “different Gospel”. I don’t admonish you as brother maybe a friend but I am concerened that you have not trusted in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as laid out in scripture.
By the way. I know longer use the name/term Christian Universalist when discussing my current understanding on scripture. I have found that there are many false assumptions about the term Christian Universalist. However, I do believe in the reconciliation of all of creation back to God through Christ – as the scriptures seem to plainly teach.
I have discussed my views pretty thorougly on this sites post entitled Redifinition of God’s Grace a few months ago. Look for it under the older post on this site. I think that will help you in your study on these things.
Jon Paden
Lionel,
I just read your post #13. I’m late for work and I will have to respond to this later.
J Paden
Jon-
Although you do not wish to be labeled a Universalist, that in fact is the best term to describe your doctrine.
I am not an expert on all aberrant doctrine, but I am familiar with the basic tenets of Universalism and its close cousin Annihilationism.
I have studied Christ’s and the Apostles words on this vital subject.
Please do not come to the conclusion that just because someone will not debate you, that they cannot.
On all of the non-essential issues/doctrines, I show great charity and unity with those who disagree with my positions.
But in the case of a clear distortion of the gospel message I believe scripture is clear that you are to be warned for teaching false doctrine and then silenced by being put out of the local assembly.
This blog is not a local assembly and it is clear that you have started your own electronic “church” platform for spreading your teaching and beliefs.
My position if this was my blog would be to warn you, plead with you to turn back from your error, if you did not, I would block you from posting.
Not because I cannot discern your errors, but that unsuspecting unbelievers who are surfing here or weaker and less mature believers might be swayed and ensnared by your teachings.
I would remove all of your posts so that someone would not be able to stumble onto your link and be exposed to your teaching on your website.
I would not share in the propagation of your positions by providing you another platform.
It does not surprise me that you consider yourself to be in Christ as I think all if not most false teachers think they are teaching the truth instead of doctrines of demons.
Universalism lulls unbelievers into a false security that everything is going to be alright.
The tragedy is that those who are enslaved to such teaching will one day despite their disbelief in eternal punishment find themselves weeping and gnashing their teeth in agony.
Again, I beg you to repent and turn back.
Lionel and Hutch,
This is another scripture that I hope will complement what you both put out. As I am in agreement with you on this issue.
Is. 66:22-24 reads ; “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the LORD,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
That seems to explain to me that not all will be saved and those who are saved will be looking at those who weren’t in a place where the worm does not die and their fire is not quenched.
Steven
Lionel,
I see that maybe I should have elaborated a bit more on what I mean when I use Rom 14:5 – “let everyone be fully convinced in their own mind”. If you notice in chapter 14 of Romans the issue is about believers in Christ who have differences of opinions on various non essentials to our salvation in Christ. I by no means include the basic understanding of what is to come alive to God.
I believe that we would all agree that noone can come to the Father unless he/she is drawn to God through Christ. Once one is drawn and received the testimony of what Christ has accomplished for them on the cross, then that person has the obligation to receive God’s grace through faith. Once one has confessed (acknowledged the lordship of Christ and His saving grace)and repented (turning away from sin) he/she must continue to abide in Christ (the vine). This is done by feeding off of Christ (feeding off of His word and acting out on it – being led by the spirit/word). Their must first be a spirtual death (second death) in order to recieve spiritual life (second birth). This is what water baptism symbolizes (death to the old man and rising anew in Christ). These are what I consider to be essential truths regarding the message of salvation. Discussing various non essentials such as is there a literal hell fire to burn people forever or not, should we pays tithes or not, should we pratice water baptism and communion, should we worship on Saturday, should we eat pork, etc. must not cause strive and division to a point where we can no longer fellowship or cast others off as heresy teachers. We should strive for unity in our faith on non essentials but not to the point which causes strive and destroys peace amongst the bethren. If you have noticed many have attacked my beliefs and called me deragotory names and made silly comments about me and I have always responded in love and with patience. This is the true sign of the real brethren. For we should have love for one another.
Jon Paden
Jon,
You are making hell a non-essential and comapring to tithes? I have never called you a name and never will. I believe you to be a very gracious and loving fella. I don’t know you but it seems that you are nice dude. However, I have to put you in a category that I do Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. To say “that all man are saved” is in turn away from the Gospel. I have explained this is so many ways and so have many others. This isn’t a secondary issue but the heart of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. To deny it is to make the entire New Testament null and void. I can’t shake you hand as a brother my friend, but as a friend I would most likely enjoy your company.
I affirm the Gospel of the Scriptures. Hell is a promise to all who refuse to receive the work of grace of God in Christ Jon. John 3 makes it abudantly clear, the book or The Revelation makes it clear and as far as I can remember only one book in the entire New Testament withholds information on the future judgement that being Philemon. I could be wrong but this off the top of my head. I love you man, and I do wish that you will understand that this isn’t a small doctrinal disagreement but a serious error that redefines the Gospel and as for that you and I are not brothers, though we can be friends.
Lionel,
You and others seem to continue with false assumptions with my beliefs. I never said that all are saved. This would contradict so many scriptures. I’ve stated just like many scriptures have stated that all will ulitmately be drawn to Christ. Not all in this age. In the age to come the scripture speaks of some (overcomers of sin through Christ in this current age)to be raised to life more abudant while all others (those who did not overcome sin through Christ in this age) will go through God’s judgement/chastisement/fire were there will be great sorrow. The problem that you and others with similar beliefs on hell/lake of fire/everlasting judgement is that to believe this would mean to deny the truth of so many other scriptures.
Is God Himself teaching heresy in the following scriptures?
He had a plan already in place to redeem mankind, since He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). He, who created all things, will “reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross” (Colossians 1:20). This reconciliation or restoration of ALL things was foretold by God when He “spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago” (Acts 3:21). God has appointed His Son to be the “heir of ALL things” (Hebrews 1:2) and in God’s Son “shall ALL the nations be blessed” (Galatians 3:8).
God has given His Son “authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him” (John 17:2). “The Father has given ALL things into the Son’s hands” (John 3:35) and so “ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God” (Luke 3:6). Because of “the unchangeable character of God’s purpose” (Hebrews 6:17), because His love for His enemies is unchanging and “He is kind to the ungrateful and evil” (Luke 6:35). “He desires ALL people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4). He “gave himself as a ransom for ALL” (1 Timothy 2:6). He “is not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). He “has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL” (Romans 11:32) “for from him and through him and to him are ALL things” (Romans 11:36).
So God’s plan is “to unite ALL things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). The Father has “put ALL things under Christ’s feet” (Ephesians 1:22) and has “given ALL things into his hands” (John 13:3). Jesus has promised to “draw ALL men” to Himself (John 12:32) because “the Father loves the Son and has given ALL things into his hand” (John 3:35). Jesus said, “ALL that the Father gives me will come to me” (John 6:37). Jesus says that like a good shepherd, He will search for each of His lost sheep “until he finds it” (Luke 15:4). “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:17). “The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for ALL people” (Titus 2:11).
Jesus is the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Jesus gave His flesh as bread “for the life of the world” (John 6:51). “He gives life to the world” (John 6:33). He is “the light of the world” (John 8:12). “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). “He is the Savior of ALL people” (1 Timothy 4:10), “the Savior of the world” (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14). “He appeared to destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8).
Jesus “abolished death” (2 Timothy 1:10). “He has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” (Hebrews 9:26). His power “enables him to subject all things to himself’” (Philippians 3:21). “The gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does” (1 Peter 4:6). He has “the keys of Death and Hades” (Revelation 1:18). He will throw “Death and Hades into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14).
“In Christ shall all be made alive” (I Corinthians 15:22). He “accomplished the work” that the Father gave Him to do (John 17:4). “He restores all things” (Acts 3:21). “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:10-11). Then comes the end, when he [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For `God has put all things in subjection under his feet.’ But when it says `all things are put in subjection,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
Call me naive but these scriptures seem to definetly contradict your current view on what God’s ultimate plan is for His human creation. So we would seem to have a dilemma. As I’ve stated before, we know God’s Word does not contradict itself. However, there are what seems to be contradictions with various translations of His Word. Therefore, whenever scripture seems to not agree with other scriptures or doesn’t seem to not make much logical sense, we must delve deeper into the study of the Word. One way this is done is by referring back to the original languages to hopefully bring about greater understanding on any given passage(s) of scripture. Now let’s try to apply this approach in our study of the words translated everlasting, eternal, forever and ever and hell. You will find that hell has been mistranslated to represent three different greek words. You will find that words like everlasting and eternal have been mistranslated from a greek word that designates a specific time span (aion/eon – aionios/eonist). Again I have elaborated on these things under the Redifinition of Gods Grace.
Another thought for you all. If I’m teaching heresy by saying that God’s plan entails reconciling the whole world to Himself, then did many of the early church fathers (before 300 AD) also teach heresy? Or could it be that heresy has been introduced to you and therefore you are teaching heresy? If I’m not considered to be a fellow brother in Christ based on God drawing me, my responding to His pull through repentance and faith in His Son, and contining to seek to Him daily, and living according to His word; then I don’t know who you would include in the Body of Christ.
Jon Paden
Jon you said:
And then you say:
No Christian believes this Jon, we don’t believe in some temporal “purification” as you would call it. The judgement is eternal, the seperation eternal, and the wrath of God eternal. Sorry no kudos here my friend.
Finally you ask:
I include BLD, Hutch, CJ, Tyris………. myself…………. a millions of others who have acknowledged Christ. You have provided many verses in such horrible context. Your theology has driven your interpretation. You used Gal 3:8 to justify your theological position? Come on man, I don’t know what else to say to you. I truly hope you see your error and turn. To teach this is to outright deny the Gospel Jon. I am sorry but again you have missed me on this post bro.
Lionel said:
“You used Gal 3:8 to justify your theological position?”
My response:
I used plenty of other scriptures that you and others seem to continually avoid dealing with. Let’s look at some of those again and then explain to me how I’m using the verses in “such horrible context”.
“In Christ shall all be made alive” (I Corinthians 15:22)
“He desires ALL people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4).
“gave himself as a ransom for ALL” (1 Timothy 2:6)
He“is not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).
He “has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL” (Romans 11:32)
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).
“He is the Savior of ALL people” (1 Timothy 4:10)
Jesus is the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29).
“to unite ALL things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth” (Ephesians 1:10)
Please provide commentary on these scriptures. Where am I off? Do these scriptures mean something else than what they plainly seem to state? Does ALL not really mean All in these scriptures? Is there some misunderstanding in the original greek languages that I’m not aware of?
Lionel said:
“No Christian believes this Jon, we don’t believe in some temporal “purification” as you would call it. The judgement is eternal, the seperation eternal, and the wrath of God eternal.”
My response:
This is a very naive statement. Open your eyes a little more and you will find that there are many Christians who would not agree with you on eternal judgement, eternal seperation, and God’s wrath abiding forever. How can someone remain spirtually dead (seperation) to God forever when the Bible clearly states that death is the last enemy to be destroyed? It would seem to me that is in fact you who are letting your theology interpret scriptures.
Jon Paden
Let me ask you a question Jon and I need you to be faithful,
Acts 11:28 And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world (this took place in the days of Claudius).
Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.
John 12:19 So the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing.
Look, the world has gone after him.”
Acts 17:6 And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have turned the world upside down have come here also,
Col 1:6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing
—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,
Now Jon here is the question. Are we to take those terms literally? Had a famine come over the whole world? Did they at point turn the whole world upside down? When Jesus walked the earth did the “whole world” go after Him? Now if you answer is yes you don’t understand the literary tool of hyperbole. If your answer is no, why then do you use the word all in such a way that was foreign to the authors intent and mix and match your hermeneutic to produce a faulty theology? These are serious accusations and maybe you just don’t understand that this literary tool exist, we do it all the time though so I would be suprised if you didn’t. Things such as you “woke up the entire neighborhood” or “that car crash was so loud you can here it in another state”. Or maybe you really do know and fell to apply it consistently because it contradicts your theology. Either way you should not be teaching other men and women the scriptures if this is the case.
Lionel,
Here again you convientiently skipped over the scriptures that I’ve asked you to address. Of course certain things may be literal or figurative in scripture. I’ve been trying to explain this to you in regards to scriptures that refer to hell (mistranslation of 3 different greek words in new testament) including the parable about Lazarus and regarding Revelations scriptures on the lake of fire, and other scriptures that pertain to God’s fire judgement. These scriptures are not to be taken to mean a literal fire!
Please Restudy!!!
The same fire that some will face in the coming judgement is the same fire that consumes all flesh (sin/carnality/death). For the scriptures speak of God being a consuming fire; the righteous are tried by fire, baptized in fire, refined by fire. This is of course is not to be taken as a literal fire buring us.
It’s amazing how you can claim that I’m teaching another Gospel, when you’ve added to the way of salvation clearly set out in scriptures:
I believe most would agree that noone can come to the Father unless he/she is drawn to God through Christ. Once one is drawn and received the testimony of what Christ has accomplished for them on the cross, then that person has the obligation to receive God’s grace through faith. Once one has confessed (acknowledged the lordship of Christ and His saving grace)and repented (turning away from sin) he/she must continue to abide in Christ (the vine). This is done by feeding off of Christ (feeding off of His word and acting out on it – being led by the spirit/word). Their must first be a spirtual death (second death) in order to recieve spiritual life (second birth).
But you’ve went on to add something like this:
Lionel 3:16 – You must believe in a literal fire buring hell in order to be saved and counted as one of the bethren.
This is nonsense!!! You are the one preaching/teaching a false message of salvation!!!
You’ve added to the word similar to how some pentecostals believe that you must speak in tongues as evidence that you are really saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Or like some who believe that you must pay tithes to be saved. I had a conversation with one of my uncles, who is a COGIC Superintendant (maybe a bishop now) here in Atlanta, about the validity of teaching that you are commanded to give tithes. He told me that you could not be saved if you didn’t pay tithes. His rational was that the bible says that no thief will enter the kingdom of God and that you are robbing God if you do not pay your tithes.
Another gospel!!!
And you guys say that I’m the one teaching heresy?
Jon Paden
Jon,
So you won’t answer my questions?
Lionel,
That passage seem obtuse to our sensitivities, but, as Hutch pointed out, the context is among you there shall be false teachers.
The folks in question may have had some semblence of right talk and right walk, but absolutly no transformation from the Spirit.
A tree is known by it’s fruit.
T
Lionel,
Maybe it will help you if I state this in all caps:
THE CONTEXT OF THE SCRIPTURE HELPS US TO KNOW WHETHER A GIVEN PASSAGE OR WORD IN SCRIPTURE IS TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY OR NOT!!!
Do you really believe that the lake of fire mentioned in Revelations is a literal lake of fire?
And is the parable of rich man Lazarus to be taken literally or figuratively?
Now will you please address the scriptures and questions that I have presented?
Hold up Jon,
Let me now talk about the verses you provided given the fact you have agreed with my statement.
In all of the verses you provided why do you believe that all means all and world means every single human being when the same literary tool could have been used?
So lets start there. Does all mean all in those verses and if so tell me how?
Hutch,
You stated in post #16 :
“Universalism lulls unbelievers into a false security that everything is going to be alright. The tragedy is that those who are enslaved to such teaching will one day despite their disbelief in eternal punishment find themselves weeping and gnashing their teeth in agony”
Case in point of why I have tried to seperate myself from the term Christian Universalism. How am I lulling unbelievers into a false security that everything is going to be alright. Everything is not alright. For the scriptures do teach of great sorrow/grief/torment/agony in the judgment age when some will resurrected to condemnation/judgment of the age(s).
I believe it is of utmost importance to proclaim the gospel (good news). What is the good news? That Jesus is the savior of the world. And that through His sacrifical death on the cross all mankind can now be reconciled to God by grace through faith. We no longer have to remain bound by sin. We can be healed of our spiritual sickness. We can now be made alive to God through Christ. We can now be made joint-heirs with Christ, ruling and reigning with Him. We can now inherit the kingdom of God. There is also hope for all of the dead. That in the age to come all others will be drawn to the cross and repent and profess Christ (second death or cast into the lake of fire). And at the consumation of the ages, God will be all in all.
Lionel,
When trying to better understand a given subject in scripture, it helps if we compare scriptures with other scriptures of similar subject matter. Based on my current understanding on so many other passages of scripture pertaining to this topic, I am led to believe that the ALL refered to in the previous scriptures I presented, literally do encompass all of human creation. Compare these scriputres on the subject:
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross (Col 1:19-20)
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (I John 2:2)
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:32)
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (I Tim 2:3-4)
And I when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to myself (John 12:32)
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten (Rev 3:19)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16)
Help me understand why these scripture references to ALL are not to be taken literally given the context?
Jon,
This will be my final correspondnce with you on this issue. I will answer your verses.
1. If you continue through the rest of the letter you will find that they escaped God’s wrath but it is still coming on evil doers. If you go to the next few verses we see that he goes to plural personal pronoun “you”. There are those who have not escaped and we see that in the following sentences (you can’t read a verse apart from the letter or context Jon and you know that)
2. John uses the contrast of light and darkness and being born of God and not being born of God. Again the “whole world” doesn’t mean everyone. If that be the case do you believe that Satan will be redeemed also? He is part of creation. The bible makes it clear that He will face judgment and all who followed Him. So again the context drives this. As a matter of fact it may be good for you to do a study of John’s use of “world” in his writings.
3. Please explain to me who the their is a couple of verses ahead? Are they not the chosen remnant of Israel that God has prepared? So again who is the all in that context? All humanity? Not at all, all of the remnant as a matter of fact start at verse 1.
4. Exactly how is this “righteousness” obtained? It is universally applied? Or is there a codition that starts really in Chapter 3 and works itself out through chapter 5? I think there is and Paul gives us an illustration or a picture by the name of Abraham and it is called faith. So this righteousness is only through faith and is not universally applied and this is what Paul is defending here.
5. That is what God desires that never says that all will come, as a matter of fact he talks about a great aposty a couple chapters later where people will walk away from the faith that say they once had.
6. Read John 3 since you like that verse so much go to verses 17-18 then verse 36. Who are those who God’s wrath remain upon? Not to mention if you go down to the last 6 verses you see Jesus talking of those who won’t receive His drawing and will be juged “on the last day”. So again you have used a verse out of its context Jon. If not Jesus is a schezophrenic.
7. Jon Revelation 3 is in reference to a “church” a redeemed group of individuals not some random pie in the sky idea. He is speaking specifically of chastening a church. Come on man.
8. I answered your John 3:16 in number 6, but again just read the next two verses. The condition is belief and you seem to skip the next two verses for some odd reason.
Plain and simple Jon you are using God’s word to perpetuate a false theology and a false Gospel, one that says all men will be saved after going through some false temproal punishment that the bible never ever promotes. Your gospel is false and to teach such a thing gives a nonbeliver a false hope that he will escape God’s eternal wrath. When that day comes I pray that your error is over looked, but Jesus made a claim to Pharisees that I belive to be appropriate to you. That is that they would travel miles and miles to make one false convert and make them twice the son of hell that they were. I believe that this is fitting. You must understand that what you are promoting is false and false teachers will receive a stricter judgment. Please as Hutch said repent and trust Gods’ word before it is too late, I implore you.
Lionel,
Thanks for providing some commentary on some of the scriptures that I have thus presented. How about the following scriputures that don’t seem to be so easily discarded.
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
Isaiah 45:22-24
Let all the world look to me for salvation! For I am God; there is no other. I have sworn by my own name, and I will never go back on my word: every knee will bow to me, and every tongue WILL CONFESS ALLEGIANCE to my name.
Acts 3:20-21
and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS (YES, INCLUDING SATAN), which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the ages began (Greek – aion apo).
Ephesians 1:9-10
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect WHEN THE TIMES WILL HAVE REACHED THEIR FULFILLMENT (YET FUTURE)—to bring all things in heaven and on earth TOGETHER UNDER ONE HEAD, even Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, BY THE POWER THAT ENABLES HIM TO SUBJECT ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF.
Col 1:20
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, WHETHER ON EARTH OR IN HEAVEN, making peace by the blood of his cross.
And in regards to scripture references to torment/judgment lasting forever/eternal/everlasting:
Some translations of the bible in several other scriptures use the mistranslated words forever and ever/eternal/everlasting for things that are obviously not eternal. For example in Jude 1:7 we are told that Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering an ETERNAL FIRE. Obviously this is not the case or we would see the fire still today!
Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE.
The word “forever” is used many times in the old testament in connection with things that ARE ALERADY ENDED!
Please explain to me where you get the doctrine of some hell being a literal place of fire torment. And please use scriptures to defend your argument so that we can discuss whether the scripture should be taken literally or figuratively!
What is the lake of fire? The lake of fire is the second death (Rev 20:14). What is the first and second death? What is the first and second birth?
the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual (I Cor 15:46)
The first death is physical and the second death is a spiritual death. For the second death is death to sin. The first birth is physical but to be born again (second birth –spiritual) one must crucify the flesh (death to sin) through the power of the Holy Spirit (baptized with fire-lake of fire). The lake of fire and brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone (the word brimstone or sulphur explains the character of the fire). The Greek word Theion translated brimstone is the same word Theion which means divine. The verb derived from Theion is Theioo, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god. Therefore, it may be concluded that a lake of fire and brimstone would mean a lake of divine purification.
Must we deny the power of God to accomplish all that He desires and has preordained before the foundations of the world? Has God indeed shown partiality (respecter of persons) by choosing to only draw a few to Him to be saved? Will not God seek and save all the lost? Is He not fully able to draw all men to Himself? Is Christ not able to reconcile the whole world to God by subjecting all things to Himself?