Here is the verse:
3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task
The questions:
1. Is anyone “called” to the ministry as the phrase is commonly used?
2. Is there a difference between a pastor and an elder? (this will cause us to examine Ephesians 4:11 and 1 Peter 5 in concert).
3. Given what Paul writes for qualifications what exactly is the first prerequisite?
4. Why do we believe that “pastoring” is a “special” calling instead of an aspiration?
5. Finally does this effect our ecclesiology at all?
Derrick and Michael (MSAMU) have been talking quite a bit on this issue and I wanted to provide them a platform to express their ideas. I don’t know what you guys believe about Ephesians 4:11 but I have seen you both quote it quite a bit. To those who carry the title of pastor do you feel that you were called or that this was something you aspired to? Alan if you around I would love your take on this. I am sure you have written on it before. Lance and Joe you guys have been gracious and detailed in your perspective hopefully this will help us keep the conversation going. Hutch you have been giving me fresh eyes on this so I know you have a bunch to add. This should be enjoyable. Now any takers?
boy, you have opened up a lot of stuff here. Just the discussion on “calling” alone could go on a bit. I will keep this short.
1. If the common usage calling means “a special assignment from God for pastors” and if by ministry you mean, “full time paid work in a church”, then no, I am not a fan of that usage.
2. No
3. Not sure I get what you mean by “first” prerequisite, but my answer would start here.
4. I think it is “Both / “And” not either all. I think every follower is called to something special and every follower must aspire to use their giftings for the edification of the Body.
5. Yes
oh, and good graphic. Not enough blogs use graphics so I dig it :-
Joe,
1. Both together or just one. Do you believe it is a special calling?
3. The prerequisites of Eldership or the qualifications in 1 Timothy 3:11.
5. How?
Thanks for the compliment
I just thought it was time to stop beating around the bush so to speak that’s it.
Hey Lionel,
I heard a talk from a respected pastor who for the life of me I can’t remember his name as of now. He used to pastor a church in Memphis and he passed away in the late ninetys.
He said that and I am paraphrasing that we don’t get called per se as he always disliked that term. I want to find his teaching so I can quote him. It was on the mark. For myself I felt the Lord put it in my heart the gift of evangelism. Every since I have been more eager to go out and proclaim the gospel. I don’t consider it being called. I just know one day I felt different. I have heard of preachers who were “called” to the ministry only to later leave the ministry. Look at Paul for example how did he get into the ministry? A Damascus road experience with Jesus Himself talking to him. Again I don’t consider someone making a career out of the ministry to go on payroll just for the money as being called either. Just thought and as soon as I remember that gentlemans name I will re post a comment.
SOwen
Hey, I remember some of what that gentleman said, He said we don’t get called we get gifted. If that makes sense.
Steven,
Can you show me where Elders are gifted?
Next can anyone show me the “office” of the pastor?
Or does the gifting drive the “aspiration” which is the word “oregōmai” and I think Derrick pointed it out it is the same as desire/covet/to reach for?
I think this is what I am trying to reconcile in the question. Does one get the gifting then then drives the desire to pursue such a function (not an office as far as I can see the word used in our day).
Lionel,
I haven’t seen where an elder is gifted. As far as office of a pastor that is not mentioned either.
I am not an expert in the scriptures of these so I would like to learn on this also. Also what about Romans 12:5-8. Paul describes these as gifts.
By the way it was Adrian Rogers who I had heard a teaching on about being called. I personally am not gifted to teach. I know of a gentleman who was pastoring and he didn’t have that gift. He admitted to it, but he was a gifted teacher.
Again, I am here to make comments, but more importantly to learn also.
Thanks, Steven
Me to. I was asking if you can show me.
Again I am trying to reconcile the gifting of pastor in Ephesians 4:11 with the function of Eldering. Can anyone help with that one. Do you believe that there is a difference and if there is what is it? Can you have the gift of pastoring and not be an Elder and can you be an elder and not have the gift of pastoring. How does that work exactly. And then does the gift of pastroing lead to pastors as we know them today and if not why do we do it.
I’ll say this I could be wrong here, some not all mostly like to used God “called” for what reason only they know. I think the problem is that they don’t want to be “looked at” as I wanted to do this and have this office. More or less I like that spot or office. Let’s not forget putting God behind something it carry’s weight with the believer.
Lionel-
Paul says in Ephesians 4 that God has given grace to all men according to the measure of Christ’s gift (that means he has given us more than enough overflowing amount of grace) he continues in Ephesians 4:11-13 to tell us that part of God’s gracious gift includes His giving of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastor/elders (synonymous terms) and teachers.
Gods Word says these people are gifts to the church for a specific purpose: to equip the saints (all set apart ones/all believers) for the work of the ministry. For a specific goal: until we all attain to the unity of the faith, in the knowledge of Christ, and the full measure of Christlikeness.
These goals have not be attained and will not be fully attained this side of our own personal eschatology or Christ’s return whichever comes first.
So my position is that God is still giving these gifts/gifted people to the church today.
Lionel asked: Next can anyone show me the “office” of the pastor?
I cannot, I do not believe that anyone can show you that.
Here is what I believe about authority in the church as is so well put by Jon Zens:
There is room for only ONE true authority in the local church, and that authority is the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. Christ Himself is the absolute Head (authority) of every local church. If any other authority besides Christ’s comes into the church, then the church is ruined as long as it gives ground to other “authorities.” This is a basic and vital point (Col. 1:18; Eph.4:5,15).
Our Head has given us the authoritative Word – the Scriptures – in particular, the N.T. documents. The Scriptures are our sole source of exercised authority. Those who exercise Christ’s authority in the assembly truly do so only as they hold forth the Word of God.
The Lord Jesus must be Head in a living, practical way (Col. 2:9-10).
All believers are responsible directly to the Head (Jesus), and also are responsible to one another (Rom.14:4; Rev.l:5-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; Eph.5:21).
Regarding the so called office of the pastor he continues:
All believers are priests and all are gifted. Therefore all must take their place in the assembly in a living way. All can pray, worship, witness and minister in and to the church according to their gift and experience in the Lord (Rev.l:5-6; Eph.4:7,16; Rom.12:3-8; 1 Cor.12-14)
There are certain brethren who not only are gifted but also themselves gifts to the church. These have the ministry of the Word (Eph.4:11-12).
There is no ”office” as such in the local assembly. Most people have the idea that “office” is an official position. Most believe that if a person is “officially” placed in the position of elder, pastor, bishop, etc., then because of that “office” they have “authority.”
It is in this sense that there is no such thing as an “office” in the N.T. But there are functions (Rom.12:4; cf. Vine’s N.T. Dictionary). A function is the action, duty or work that a particular person should perform. Example: an elder should oversee.
We have constructed a lot of notions about “office” that rest on human tradition, and are not found in the N.T. The King James has “office” in Rom. 11:13, 12:4 and 1 Tim.3:l. In Rom. 11:13 the Greek word is diakonia or “service.” In Rom.12:4 the Greek word is praxis, or “action/function.” In 1 Tim. 3:l, “office” is not in the text. The verse simply says, “if any one aspires to oversight’ (episkope).
Christ ’s authority is manifested in the assembly through the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit. Since the Spirit is the only true authority of Christ in the church (cf. 2 Cor.3:17-18), then we need to know how He brings forth His authority. One way He does this is through His gifts and ministries.
“The ministry God appoints is authority …. The fact that someone has the supply constitutes his authority …. Whoever is gifted has a ministry and whoever has a ministry has authority”.
In one sense the entire body shares in authority (Eph.5:21; 1 Pet. 5:5). This means that we recognize one another’s gifts, knowledge, or experience in the Lord and we submit to the Holy Spirit in each member. Even sisters share in the authority according to their gifts and experience in the Lord. However, they are not to exercise authority in the church as overseers.
Christ’s authority is manifested in the assembly through the more mature brothers (elders). The Holy Spirit (the authority) manifests His authority by speaking to the church through the church. The older (spiritually) a brother is, the more experienced he should be in hearing God’s voice and knowing His voice. An older brother should have more discernment (Heb. 5:14). This is the bottom line of eldership.
Elders are simply the more mature brothers who function as overseers. Elder, Overseer, (Bishop) and Pastor all refer to the same persons. “Elder” refers to their spiritual maturity, and overseer/pastor refers to their functions. The church should submit to its elders in view of their experience and gifts which make them accountable (Heb.13:17; 1 Pet.5:5). Submission will come into proper focus if they are properly recognized.
How are elders appointed? By the Holy Spirit (Acts 20:28). How does the Holy Spirit appoint elders? He does it by manifesting the elders’ maturity, gifts and character. There is no place in the New Testament where churches choose their own elders. Rather than appointing elders, the churches recognized elders. The objective criteria that is used in recognizing elders can be found in 1 Tim.3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.
If elders emerge in a church by political maneuvering, an opportunistic coup, or by being forced upon a people, then nothing can go right. But if people know the men who labor among them, see their manner of life, and then recognize such men – then submission by the people is put into proper perspective.
There is no such thing as an “office of the pastor” in the local church. In fact, men do not become elders by being placed in the position of overseers/pastors. Rather, men function as overseers because they are elders, gifted as shepherds (pastors). This is a critical point. If we do not see this we have opened the door wide for authority in the church other than Christ’s through the Holy Spirit.
The N.T. knows nothing of a church with “a” pastor. The N.T. always speaks of oversight in terms of plurality, not singularity. We must give heed to this.
The idea of a sustained period of time in a local church with one pastor is unknown in the N.T. Most churches in our day have a man in the church they call “the pastor.” But this is a long-standing tradition, not a Biblical teaching. The practice of a one-man elder, pastor or bishop only facilitates the danger of imposing on Christ’s headship.
Those who refer to the single “angel” of the seven churches in Revelation as a basis for a one-man pastor system are basing an important, vital doctrine on a flimsy analogy (we know that the Ephesian church had a plurality of elders, not one ”angel”/pastor; Acts 20:17). Handling texts in this way only shows the lengths to which men must go to sustain a doctrine which has no N.T. support.
Christ is the one Man who has authority over all the churches, and He gives pastors to equip the flock.
It may often be the case that one brother will have more spiritual influence in the assembly. Peter often “spoke” for the twelve, but even he designates himself as a “fellow-elder” (1 Pet.5:l). There is no doctrine in the N.T. of “the pastor,” or “chief elder.” If one brother happens to have more spiritual influence because of his gifts and experience, then let it be so. Plurality does not mean that all elders are to be equal in their spiritual influence. This is absurd and impossible. The one with more spiritual influence should be the servant of all.
The rule for all church meetings and affairs is the Headship of Christ, the priesthood of all believers, and each member contributing to the body’s edification.
(JZ)-Not the rapper!
The problem is we don’t see any of them really doing the Ephesians,4:11 to 16 live as a sample do we help me out here! I know they did don’t get me confused. The work as someone said for the ministry what ministry are we talking about here.
I find it curious, when inquiring as to the qualifications for Leadership we’ll use 1Timothy and Jude, yet we skip over the first verse 1Ti 3:1″ If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work”
Question: Does convincing ourselves that “God Called me to pastor” give one’s desire creditability?
The answer is yes, unfortunately the “God called me” the “God won’t release me” “God told me” excuses me from the responsibility of making decisions (sorry Calvin). Is it carnal to desire the office of Bishop, yes but scripture does say ” if a man desires this office (not of a man is called) he desires a good thing. Here’s the wonder of the word of God, scripture say’s it’s a good thing to desire this office, their is no mention of some kind of mystical calling that cannot be validated in scripture but of a willful desire of a man to be a servant (sorry Calvin). Now ask yourself, how many claming it’s a calling are actually qualified under the mandate set by scripture to serve the saints of God, because it’s not enough to desire, if it’s just desire it’s of my flesh, the desire must also meet the mandate, without meeting the scriptural qualification mandated in scripture the God of the bible is not in the fellowship.
DTG-
I agree that most folks who think of themselves as elders or who call themselves elders seem to show a real disconnect from what the scripture portrays an elders as being, doing and accomplishing.
To me, it’s super simple:
The focus is supposed to be on what God is DOING through the various parts of the body, not on the memebers themselves…
God doesn’t want us to call anyone “Pastor”, but he does want people in the body to be loved, nurtured and built up in the faith. (aka “pastored”)
God doesn’t want us to elevate certain people and hail them as “Elders”, but he does want their to be believers who are mature, and seasoned, whom the newer believers can watch and learn from.
It’s a matter of what the focus is on. Is it meeting the needs of others, or is it on my own position, status or reputation? If we follow Christ’s example, then we are called to die to ourselves, and put others first….
1. All believers are “called” to the ministry. I say called because in Ephesians 1:18; 4:1. Paul’s says those who are born again are called to a hope and called to walk in a manner worthy of He who called us. Isn’t the ministry we are called to a fulfillment of what the Levites did? These priests served before God because He called this tribe. We in Christ are called and are priest (1 Peter 2:9; Rev 1:6).
Also one other thing, where there classes of priest in the OT? Yes. The High Priest and the priests. What is the implication of today? There is the High Priest Jesus Christ and His priests (believers) that serve in His temple.
2. No
3. Above reproach
4. I think this goes back to the whole clergy-laity system built by the church fathers.
5. Of course it does.
Daniel-
You said: God doesn’t want us to elevate certain people and hail them as “Elders”, but he does want their to be believers who are mature, and seasoned, whom the newer believers can watch and learn from.
Well said!
1 Is anyone called into the Pastorate NO!
2 I don’t see anywhere so, there is no difference see 1 peter,5
3 1 Tim,3:1
4 Because of the traditions of men, not scriptural.
5 The way people do fellowship of course it does to me.
Have to go out the door so check this stuff later.
The Ephesians has some points that must be brought out for today’s he “gave” to the body something is major “wrong” now and has been for a long time people. There should or should I say when will there be any of the stuff we read in Ephesians put into practice. All we are going to have check on some other things in the bible.
the word “called” has nothing to do with the ministry, this is the foolishness of man.
1) to call
a) to call aloud, utter in a loud voice
b) to invite
2) to call i.e. to name, by name
a) to give a name to
1) to receive the name of, receive as a name
2) to give some name to one, call his name
b) to be called i.e. to bear a name or title (among men)
c) to salute one by name
Now if the NT knows of no concept as “pastor” or the concept of ” God called me to pastor” by who’s authority do these people operate?
They are wolfs dressed as sheep, They are those that deceive the saints calling themselves men of God while inputting fear ( God has not given us that spirit) in any saint that dear to challenge their so called “Calling” using scriptures such as ” touch not my anointed do my prophet no harm” Again I challenge this doctrine of men, and I challenge the believer, open your eyes they have put above the word of God the foolishness of man. Believers that swallow this bait hook line and sinker are now held captive under the bondage of bad doctrine. Know this that your redeemer stands at the door.
Hutch I feeling ya,
the very definition of “aspiration” means ;
a strong desire to acheive something high or great.
So shouldn’t we all aspire to be more like Christ and follow His example and all be fishers of men?
If someone would aspire to be a pastor wouldn’t that be prideful in a way? I think as the scripture says about the gifts that we should desire these…etc.
So a person feeling led to be a leader should desire right?
Also the qualifications of an elder call for one to be of one wife and have his house in order. I know of some pastors who have been married and divorced. So would that disqualify them as elders?
Also the word elder doesn’t that mean someone older, knowledgable. Meaning someone who has lived a long life. Instead of someone just out of the seminary?
Steven
Hey’ pastor’s this is for you are you guys saying you never desire this thing. Wow this hard for me to take knowing our desire to be in charge of other people. But the whole issue is if the Pastor isn’t called how did they come this place. When Paul said ordain elder’s in every city as “he” he appointed Titus. So the question again becomes who does the ordaining in every city now and from who? By the way who will set in order the things that are wanting “now” from what authority?
Hutch I really want to find out with the problem with the desire from these guys. Also what is the hang up with the inspired word of God threw Paul saying what he said to Timothy in 3:1. This is sad with the thousands of Pastor’s who say they were they can fill in the rest. In my 18 yrs I have not heard it one time if I can record it to memory. No t.v., no radio, no tapes it’s always you don’t know what it takes something to stand up here and be a pastor. Lionel please no more post man this is getting scary. How many biblical leader’s in the old and new did God really “called” to do something. We all could count them out that’s for sure. In how many yrs from the old to the new it wasn’t a lot this is for sure. Compare to the people that live in all of that time. It’s to many who say that they were what ever by God with the facts. The facts are he hasn’t done this over time the calling of to many. This is what happens when Acts,17:11 and first Thessalonians,5:21 is “not” practiced by the body and left up to the pastor’s to do.
Hey DTG,
What about this one in Acts 13?
Could that not apply?
Lionel, the answer to your follow-up is here. This outlines calling, priority, and ecclesiology. If I could make it shorter, I would not have taken a 12 part series.
Lionel: Acts 13 could apply, but it’s interesting that Barnabas and Simeon didn’t claim God called them to what ever work the Holy Spirit had for them.
They were charged by the leadership that had been ordained by the twelve. I can’t find in scripture were by one’s own authority the church accepted the ” God Called me to Pastor” claim. I’m not sure if anyone other the Hutch addressed the question, and if proven that not only the term ” God called me to pastor” is bogus but the claim (since their’s not one scripture to validate it)is not valid then what’s the responsibility of the saints?
Yes’ they were called to the services as to share the gospel.
The point still remains the pastor office as we no it, they were not called for that. The problem with this stuff today is that. God could not have called people into this many different “services” with different gospel as Pastor!!
Curious how far we’re going to take this…………….for though I see where many are coming from, I’m wondering whether those thinking that it’s wrong to say “God CALLED me to be a pastor” would say the same with “God called me to be a teacher, evangelist, etc”—–based on Ephesians 4.
Would it be wrong also to say that God called me to be a helper, a giver, an encourager, a worker of miracles, and any other gifting in the body of Christ if they showed a strong aptitude in that area?
Gab
The question remains is it Scriptural? Forget, “it’s what we have, or we’ve been doing this for so long”. Does it bring Glory to God to have countless denominations and endless conflicting doctrines claiming “they’re called of God” . Every believer has been given the Holy Spirit. Why not let the gift speak, instead of ego? I use to know a man that I believed was a gifted evangelist. He was never ordained an
evangelist at the Church he attended, never the less he walked in his gift. Everywhere he went he was called “an evangelist”. He never called himself one and the church he attended never called him one, but the people all know him as an evangelist. One day the Church had what it called an ordination ceremony. They did not “ordaine” him, it
broke his heart and they lost a very gifted worker. The Point is this, if one believes God has gifted them to lead then Lead, if to preach then preach, to help then help, if to teach
then teach. The gift is in you. Walk in it, and men will see your good works and glorify your father in heaven.
is that not what the gift is for, to bring glory to God?
Titus 1:5-9, a complementary text that provides specific guidelines to both pastors and deacons or to anyone who inspires the office of overseer (1 Tim. 3:1-13). This passage sets the standard for anyone who claims to be called to the ministry, more specifically to the ministry of the pastorate. Here, Titus highlights the following factors:
1. He must be above approach-” Above reproach is the overarching quality of the pastor.” The pastor’s life must be a consistent example of high moral and godly values. He should display a remarkable, steady life of “mature standard.” His lifestyle should not dishonor the Word of God or contradict what he preaches.
2. He must be sexually pure (1:6) – the “husband of one wife,” (literally means “a one-woman man”) a debatable phrase among Bible scholars. Perhaps the expression conveys the idea that the pastor must not be a prior divorcee. This excludes those who have been divorced prior to their conversion. In addition, the pastor must be committed fully to his one wife. He should not be (currently) engaged in sexual immorality such as adultery, having children outside of marriage, and so forth. Rather the pastor should express consistent faithfulness and fidelity to his only wife.
3. Exemplary family leadership must be proven and exhibited (1:6). The pastor’s family and marriage must be (at least) one for others to emulate. A strong and godly family is desire and required.
4. Attitude and conduct must be integrated components of the pastor’s life (1:7-8). The pastor should exercise the following virtues such as hospitality, love, sensibility, self-control, and so on.
I should have written to anyone who “aspires” not “inspires”
Sorry!
The call of God to vocational Christian leadership is different than the call of God to salvation. Generally, God has called every believer to the christian ministry in order to serve one another and reach the world for Christ. Nonetheless, there are those whom God has selected specifically and beforehand to serve as leaders of his church; just as he has appointed and called prophets and priests of old in the old covenant. Those whom God has chosen for the christian vocation will receive both a strong internal confirmation by the Spirit of God in them and external confirmation by others. Eventually, God will provide a place to serve. Moreover, these individuals called by God often display a great desire and aspiration to be “servants” of the body of Christ by leading God’s people to the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus. These same individuals also exemplify a life of high moral standard and receive the necessary qualification to fulfilll the task.
CJ,
You said:
Nonetheless, there are those whom God has selected specifically and beforehand to serve as leaders of his church; just as he has appointed and called prophets and priests of old in the old covenant. Those whom God has chosen for the christian vocation will receive both a strong internal confirmation by the Spirit of God in them and external confirmation by others. Eventually, God will provide a place to serve. Moreover, these individuals called by God often display a great desire and aspiration to be “servants” of the body of Christ by leading God’s people to the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus. These same individuals also exemplify a life of high moral standard and receive the necessary qualification to fulfilll the task.
I now ask
1. Isn’t there a stark difference between the Old and New Covenants given by the fact that all our priests (1 Peter 2) today and there is no clergy class under the New Covenant?
2. Why get paid to “serve”? Isn’t that an oxymoron? I am not saying they can’t lead but where does it say they are to be “paid” for it?
3. What are the necessary “qualifications” and how were these qualifications attained during the first 300 years of the Christian church?
Lionel,
Very good insights! You always ask hard questions
At any way, the passage in 1 Peter 2:9-10 echoes or alludes to a cluster of texts in the Hebrew Scripture ( i.e. Ex. 19:6; Isa. 43:20-21; Hoes. 2:25) in which the key phrases or expressions “chosen race,” “ royal priesthood,” “ holy nation,” and “God’s special possession” were all applied to the Israelites, the old covenant people. They are a chosen race because Yahweh has chosen them and selected them among all other peoples. He has liberated them from slavery out of the hands of the Egyptians and brought them to Mount Sinai and gave them his law. They are a royal priesthood by virtue of Yahweh being their King and Sovereign Ruler of the universe. They are God’s special possession, literally means “a people for [God’s] special possession.” Israel was God’s treasured nation out of all other nations. Yahweh has bestowed his special grace on them and exercised his “hesed” (“loving-kindness”) so “that may proclaim the excellencies” of Yahweh—the One who made them his. Finally, they are a holy nation because they are set apart for God’s special use. The one who has called them is the “Holy One of Israel” and thus requires complete holiness from them.
The notion of the royal priesthood of “all believers” does not, however, prohibit leadership position in the church. In other words, this particular Petrine language prevents not the establishment and existence of elders, deacons, pastors or overseers. Rather, here, Peter is dealing with various themes of holiness, obedience, identity, purpose, privilege which he borrowed from the old covenant. Remember the themes of obedience, holiness, self-identity, mission and privilege were also applied to the old covenant saints (See particularly Ex. Ch. 19; Deut. Chs. 4, 6-8, 11, 28-29).
Moreover, it seems that Peter was not so concerned about ecclesiastical position rather with the “purity” or “holiness” of the new covenant people whom God has set apart in Christ for his own purpose. The new covenant people are now in Christ (a new sphere that generates holy living and obedience to their new King) , their King and must exhibit the kingdom’s requirements.
Also we must keep in mind when Peter wrote these words there were existing leaders and overseers (what we today call “pastors” or “elders” in the early church. Peter was one of them and wrote as a shepherd of God’s people.
Question # 3
The requirements have not changed a bit. They’re still the same and applicable today to all who call themselves pastors, leaders, overseers (or other ecclesiological positions). See my answer above (Titus 1:5-9; 1 Tim. Ch.3)
The problem with today’s church leaders is that they have missed biblical principles on how to lead the house of God. The American church is so perverted and influenced (rather) by the business world. In other words, the church operates like a secular institution. My understanding is that Christian ministry is a “call to serve” whether you are a lay person, pastor, deacon or teach Sunday school.
I have to be honest, It really scares me that so many people here have what I would consider a low view of Pastors, Evangelist, and even elders. What? God doesn’t call people anymore? Do you really believe that all the men, specifically Pastors & elders who have been tortured beyond comprehension, martyred for their faith did so because they simply made the decision to be an under shepherd? Jeremiah, Isaiah, even the Apostle Paul… Do you think they could have gone through what they went through if God did not give them a divine calling?
With love I have to say that if you did not receive a calling from God to be in the ministry you shouldn’t be there or you wont last… UNLESS, YOU COMPROMISE TRUTH FOR MAN’S FAVOR. The men that our on this site, Paul Washer, John Piper, C.J. Mahaney, Macarthur, Sproul etc. With confidence I can assure you that if you ask any one of these men why they are in the ministry none of them will tell you because I decided to be. They will all say because God called me. What I discern most from this blog brothers is what seems like a flat out denial of the offices as well as the supernatural power of God. I understand that the Charismatic movement has taken this way too far but a lot of reformed christians have gone to the other extreme. By definition God is supernatural and logic demands that if a supernatural being calls someone to shepherd his people that calling might and probably would be supernatural as well.
Is there one example in scripture of someone having a ministry that they decided to do apart from the Holy Spirit calling them to do it?
A pastor or any one else who preaches the word of God Faithfully is no less than a Prophet. With their faithful ministry they will endure persecution, slander, and spiritual warfare that most of the time the rest of the congregation is oblivious to. Yes, men have said “I have been called” and then left the ministry. That is not proof that divine callings don’t exist, that is proof that their calling wasn’t divine or genuine. In fact, i’ll argue that the majority of men who leave seminary or the pastorate are those who went there off a decision and not a calling.
How do we fix this error? We don’t take a man simply by his profession of a calling, we examine the fruit of that man to see whether he truly has been called. Has he been given a gift to pastor and to teach, does this man have a greater measure of grace on him and his family (not so this man can boast but because he will need it to survive the ministry).
Also, When I say a Pastor must be called… I’m not taking it to the extreme saying he must have an Isaiah 6 experience but I am saying God should and does speak to that man… “How does he know its-” When its God he will know that its God.
Thank you for your time brothers. Lord willing, I will write an exposition of scripture as a response to this letter. breaking down the Scriptural backing of what I am saying. Though I must say, I don’t believe there is any scripture that backs the other position, unless you take a couple verses and deny the whole counsel of God. Alot of what I had to say in this comment comes from blessed experiences I have had with many seasoned pastors, missionaries, evangelist… All reformed in Doctrine. and of course on the list of personal testimonies I have heard, we can also add men we’ve all read such as Charles Spurgeon, Martin Loyyd-Jones, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Wayne Grudem, Thomas Watson & all the Puritans, etc.
Also, and I must say this with a Passion… Brother, the question is not why should Pastors get paid the question is why shouldn’t Pastors get paid. Do you want the man who is going to be your Spiritual Leader working a 9-5 and spending only a couple hours in the word and in prayer? Or do you want your Spiritual Leader to be a man who is laboring hours upon hours a day in the Scriptures and prayer. If you don’t want the latter than something is wrong.
I honestly believe that one of the greatest isssues affecting the believing church in America right now is the fact that congregations don’t support their Pastors or ministers. They expect their pastor to work 2 jobs to support his family and come to church on Sundays and part seas (I don’t mean that literally, I’m not apart of what is called the charismatic movement). We invest soo much in our personal comfort and soo little in our spiritual maturity. Not just with Pastors. I believe the church should rejoice in supporting single men who are spiritual (in the right sense of the word) and are willing to give there entire days to studying scripture and prayer for the sake of the church. Church, are we really trying to “Recover the Gospel” or are we just trying to make up another one.
I truly pray I didn’t sound condescending in this letter. I have no desire to put any of you down… My only desire is to put God up.
Coram Deo
Kyle Howard
If these so-called leaders are rejecting scripture, and have taken on the “way of the world” why are they referred to as
“Christian Leaders” , if it walks like a duke, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duke odds are it’s a duck, these men and woman walk like the world, require what the world require, love being served as the world does, reject the word of God as the world does, I mean hate me if you like but I do not see the spirit of God in them, thus they are of the world and do not have God’s Holy Spirit.
sorry, make that Duck not duke…………I’m rushing this morning
CJ,
1. I agree that there is leadership in the church. As a matter of fact Male Leadership called elders and they provide oversight for the local body of Christ.
2. I think where we disagree is the “calling” (if I understood you correctly) and that calling being a vocation in the local assembly. Unless I have misunderstood Paul’s words in Acts 20 to the Ephesian elders.
Kyle,
I am not being ugly but you said a lot without saying anything at all. I will try to answer this as concisely as possible.
1. No one has a low view of any gift giving by the Holy Spirit.
2. Prophets in the Old Testament are not New Covenant Shepherds.
3. Where does the bible call Elders or Shepherds an Office?
4. Everytime we operate in out gifting it is by the Holy Spirit.
5. Jesus is my “Spiritual Leader”.
6. All believers should study as hard as “pastors” doesn’t Paul command all to “be dillegent to handle the word of Truth”. Shouldn’t all belivers “pray without ceasing” only pastors are required to labor in prayer? He should get paid for that? Can you show me that in the holy word?
7. We only want Pastors to work 1 job like everyone else.
8. I actually invest a great deal in my spiritual maturity. Are you saying I should invest in a man to help me become Spiritually mature? Can you show me that one?
9. I don’t need anyone mediating for me thus “I shouldn’t support a single man who labors in prayer and the scriptures” I think I can handle that myself.
10. I also believe one the greatest issues are “professionals in the pulpits” and “potatoes in the pews”.
11. Likewise on the putting up and down.
I like this statement:
10. I also believe one the greatest issues are “professionals in the pulpits” and “potatoes in the pews”.