I guess there could be many biblical reasons to leave a “church” (I prefer gathering). False teaching, immoral leaders, sin not addressed, or something along those lines. However, one reason is not because you “aren’t being fed”. But for circles that I run in this reason seems to not only be a reason but a huge reason. It is a major player.
There a few misconceptions that I want to clear up.
1. You don’t go to church to be fed by the pulpit. If so can someone show me please?
2. You don’t measure a church by how good the “preaching” is.
3. The Pulpit is not the center of the Christian Church.
Here are reason we do gather:
1. To spur EACH OTHER on. Not for the “pastor” to do the spurring
2. We do gather to encourage one another, and admonish one another.
3. The reason we meet are for one another simply put. Not to be theological sponges, or passive participators.
With that said. I don’t believe “church” would be so boring if all believers were operating at full maturity and they were given opportunities to employ their gifts and not only that but also participate in the exhorting of one another. The weirdest thing to hear (and I used to hear it from myself) is that “this church is boring”. So in the evangelical pulpit centered churches, great oratory skills are needed to keep the people satisfied or they go elsewhere. I have heard “well he just isn’t a good teacher”.
Again I say, we don’t gather to be exhorted by one man but by the whole church. I believe this is why particaptory teaching is the key. I see this done a bunch over at www.ids.org and if you listen to their teachings, there is constant interaction and times where the teachers pause to ask questions. But it is beautiful to hear the body expound upon a certain point made by the teacher that day. However we want to be entertained and we are even taught now that if you aren’t entertaining a certain way (a specific way to present expository sermons) then you aren’t a good entertainer.
I say all of that to say this. We gather to encourage, exhort, edify, spur, love, serve, admonish one another and these are done when the gift that Christ gave to us through the Spirit are allowed to be employed when we meet. To hear someone say “I am not being fed” is a category mistake. It is like saying “I don’t like the way that music tastes”. When I talk like this to people they usually look at me as if I am weird. When I tell them to feed themselves or to meet with others over coffee or at a lunch bible study and get fed, they think I am crazy! Why? Because we are conditioned to believe that we are to go to church and get good music (performed for us) and a great sermon (performed for us) and if not then we didn’t have a good “worship service” (a phrase the New Testament never uses).
We must change the way we think if we are to function properly. We aren’t to be spoon fed, we are to prepare to bring something to the gathering not passively wait to get something from it. We are to prayed up to be used by God to exhort, encourage, admonish and spur, not wait for the pastor and worship leader to do this for us. Look at the picture above, we are not to function in such a way.
Lionel,
Would the world be any more perfect if we all shared a collective understanding of anything? I guess I have trouble with your clarity of what church is and isn’t. You say “…You don’t go to church to be fed by the pulpit. You don’t measure a church by how good the “preaching” is. The Pulpit is not the center of the Christian Church…”
Well, the Pastor is the one having spiritual charge over a congregation, i.e., the shepherd. The Pastor performs this duty from a usually elevated platform, known as a pulpit. Now… I agree that the pulpit is not the center of the church, but it is the head and the mind of the church. The center of the church is the common belief that is shared amongst the people.
Of course I know that the “church” is not the building itself. But the building is the place of gathering. This comes in handy during inclement weather. The one thing that is rarely addressed in the fact that some people are educated enough to be able to raise their religious understanding to a higher level (like yourself) while others are barely educated at all. There are some people whom can barely read or can’t read at all. I’m not too sure if it is a sin to not be basically educated… but it is a choice that people make. Therefore, some people have to be fed by someone, either pastor or member. Since most people have lives outside of the church, we must acknowledge that for some, there just isn’t enough time to try “feeding” others. This is where the Pastors become important since they are the ones whom have this accepted responsibility of feeding others. The music and so forth are for entertaining and enlightening purposes. This isn’t wrong since Church needs to be interesting to even the least of the intellectuals.
You also seemed to have taken a quick (Mayweather) jab at those that are conditioned to believe a certain way. As a Believer, aren’t you conditioned to believe that that Bible is in fact the word of God? You in fact learned Jesus as a child. You too have been spoon fed but someone (this is not a bad thing). Now you have learned to start feeding yourself. Me, I had to leave to table when I realized the food was full of artificial flavors.
Lionel,
Good post as usual. One thing I think we should be mindfulof is what you stated in your next to last paragraph that “worship service” is not mentioned in the New Testament. Neither are the words “Trinity”, “Monergism”, or “Complementarianism”. These are all words used to describe beliefs held by many today. I just don’t believe that particular fact is a good argument and takes away from your well stated point. I also believe that in a good “church” you can have both the preaching and particpatory teaching if you have leaders who don’t feel the need to be the “star” of the show which is where I feel most of the problem really lies.
Chuck,
I don’t know you personally so don’t take this wrong. The thing that you said was : “I agree the pulpit is not the center of the church, but it is the head and the mind of the church.”
Brother that is a big play on words. Since the bible says that Jesus Christ is the head of the church. I hope you were mispoken on what you said. Since that is wrong. I won’t go into great details on your other thoughts, I will just urge you to read some of the older posts or better yet read your bible for yourself as it is self explanatory.
Sincerely, Steven O.
CP,
Thats where I think we would disagree. I don’t believe a “pastor” has spiritual charge. That would be an unbiblical position to me. I believe all who gather have charge. Each member working collectively together.
I agree on those who choose to remain “uneducated” however the bible is written on about 7th-8th grade reading level. And yes some of the more complicated doctrines can be difficult for some to grasp. But Chuck, even an illiterate man can bring a word of encouragement and exhortation and be used to build up the body. Many slaves couldn’t read, but they in turn contributed, with our access to education today there isn’t much of an excuse. But we willingly and unguardedly pass those responsibilities.
Next we can’t have “lives outside the church” Chuck. It is a category mistake. We are in the church permenantely. As we are in Christ we can’t live the chuch. We can live the building and the religous programs that are used to define the “church” (falsely). Our ministry as believers is always outside the 4 walls .
Yeah it is a jab. LOL. However it is a loving one. The first jab is to get those who believe they need to be fed motivated to stop passing their spiritual responsibilities to a select few (you know in the Old Testament the priest were responsible for the spiritual vitality of Israel, in the New we are all Priests, the veil has been torn and we all minister to one another, no select few). The next jab is at those leaders who perpetuate this mentality by accepting this passing of responsibilities when they know darn well their responsibility is to equip, or if not hopefully reading this will at least to get them to reconsider their positions.
Hey Carey,
Lets continue this dialogue. I will start it off by saying.
1. The Trinity describes or defines something that is there, which is missing in definable doctrinal terms.
2. The same goes for Monergism and Complementarianism (which I may not agree with many folks position on the Reformed side)
3. Worship Service is counterproductive and doesn’t define anything. Because I would have to ask who is the service to and not only that people feel that coming to church equates to worship and worship has to have good preaching and good songs or it was bad worship. See where I am headed?
Lionel,
Good morning brother. This is another good scripture to refernce concerning the church etc.
Hebrews 8:1-2 ” Now this is the main point of the things we aer saying: “We have such a High Priest,’ Who’ is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the “sanctuary” and the “true tabernacle” which “the LORD erected, and not man.”
Isn’t that just awesome? God has His sanctuary and true tabernacle erected in heaven and not made by man.
This is for all………Steven O.
Good Observation on the spoon feeding. I originally left my father-in-laws church for that reason, but returned after being introduced to new convenant theology and christian hedonism, and biblical stewardship and true christian education through studies. After doing careful hermenuetical studies while still attending the church which I eventually left for true biblical reasons, I relearned what it meant to be fed. I continue to struggle as you do with the mindset of individuals wanting everything handed to them and not the most important thing needed, which is personal resposiblity. Working out our own soul salvation with fear and trembling should make us wonder about things such as the teaching we recieve. I always ask questions like “is it sound? or is it real? or what does that have to do with salvation?”.
As I continue to read these post, I see myself in them and better understand why God has allowed me to take this journey thus far. We are one body and should not be bound by anything other than our allegiance to Christ alone. When that becomes blurred by the church or the denomination or our personal allegiance to family, friends, or the pulpit, you better watch out. Thanks for staying faithful to what Christ has called you. Exposing these lies that have been fed to us over a long period of time. Thanks for standing up and saying what so many are afraid to say regardless of the backlash.
Amen!
Now my prayer is, “Lord, may we all find wisdom in doing this and give each other grace in the process.”
Steven O,
I understand that you don’t know me. However, if you chose to respond to anything I say… please keep two things in mind: 1. I have been reading Lionels Posts for at least a couple of years (therefore I have read the older posts). 2. I am NOT a Bible believer.
I have read and studied the Bible in ways you could neither imagine nor digest.
Steven O,
I understand that you don’t know me. However, if you chose to respond to anything I say… please keep two things in mind: 1. I have been reading Lionels Posts for at least a couple of years (therefore I have read the older posts). 2. I am NOT a Bible believer. When you have knowledge… you don’t need faith…
I have read and studied the Bible in ways you could neither imagine nor digest.
Chuck ,
Then you would know that Christ is the head of the church and not the pulpit. That was the point I was trying to bring out. I apologize if my comment offended you as that was not my point. Thank you for your comment on how you studied the bible. Wow!!
Chuck,
I say wow because that is good…..
Lionel,
I do see where you are going. I would say this:
1. Any gathering of Christians for prayer, singing of songs, teaching/preaching of the word, encouragement, felllowship, exchanging of ideas is considered worship to me.
2. Our problem comes where we define these gatherings ( I usually use church but this is your blog so I will defer to your term…lol) as the ONLY way to worship which is if I am understanding you correctly where your issue lies.
3. Living our lives on a daily basis is according to God’s word is the major part of worship according to my understanding.
4. So the issue comes in redfining the iportance of the gathering on the larger scale of our Christian lives from the only way to worship to just one area of our total worship.
5. With service I believe it is the same thing. Hebrews 10:25 states that we should come together so these gatherings can be seen as “A” service to him but not the totality of our service to Him.
In conclusion I would say I do not have a problem with the term “worship service” but more so how it is defined by most.
Your thoughts?
Excuse the spelling errors. I forgot to check it before I hit submit…:(
Chuck said: I have read and studied the Bible in ways you could neither imagine nor digest.
Chuck-
What are the ways that you have read and studied the Bible that Steven would be unable to imagine and digest?
I’m intrigued.
Paul cites “the church at ________.” So what’s your beef with the term? Most differentiate between the “C”hurch and local “c”hurches.
Just curious because you often make arguments about what’s not “in the Bible.” Well, “church” in the local sense of the word is in the Bible.
In a broader sense, I am curious because some in my neck of the woods (Baptist life) have shunned the word “church” for other terms in their names and signs.
Hutch,
Continue to be intrigued. What I mean when I say I have studied the bible… I have studied the bible from both a Christian perspective (meaning I studied with the anticipatory mind that it was the infallible word of God) and a Skeptic perspective (meaning I was able to accept the many contradictions and inerrancies that I read). Therefore… if someone is really a “Christian” then they are indeed unable to imagine and digest any FACTS that I bring forth. The Bible is indeed an incredible book.
Chuck,
I appreciate your bold honesty, and though I do not share the summation of that honesty, I do appreciate it. Thank you.
Lionel,
Man, my infancy is continuously displayed in my reading at this board. What is your email address brother, I would like to continue a few discussions off the board, if that is alright with you?