Jesus says this to the Pharisees:
8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)— 12 then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, 13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
In Mark 7, Jesus exposes the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. They came up to Jesus attempting to punk him over eating with “defiled” hands. In other words Jewish custom was to wash your hands before eating and it was consider unclean to do the opposite. This isn’t a matter of a husband changing oil then grabbing a cup of water without first running to a sink and getting scolded by his wife. The Pharisees took this uncleanliness and pretty much made it a sin to violate such a tradition. They were very popular for that.
So Jesus flips a tradition they were holding against them. It was the tradition of giving. The Pharisees would teach their disciples that if you gave to the “church” (religion) then you were free from giving to your parents. However Jesus uses the Law to expose their hyprocrisy. He says “you have a fine way of rejecting the commandments of God in order to establish your tradition”. That statement is priceless. I could imagine the faces of the Pharisees, I bet if their was a brick near by they would have tossed it at Jesus. This is the epitome of “pie face”. LOL.
But seriously Jesus was bringing an undeniable charge to them. Not paticullary the money but the fact that their traditions had taking precedent over the commands of God. I will spend time with this a little.
James says this:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Now let me ask again. I am not trying to be forceful but are what we doing today in our traditions somehow infringing on the direct commands to meet the needs of others? Are our multimillion dollar facilities, state of the art equipment and other such things preventing us from properly meeting the needs of others. Now let me clarify. I am not saying you can’t have these things. But what I have a problem with is:
1. The manipulation that goes on to raise funds for these things
2. The legality of tithing that is taught with little to no regard of the gracious New Covenant
3.The traditional teaching of giving to a “church” (which typical means a building or entity not a group of believers) that can’t be found in the scriptures (unless that giving is to another church examples are Macedonia and Corinth giving to Jerusalem)
With that I believe we must be careful with our traditions that we don’t ignore the clear commands to properly provide for the the needy. Many Chrisitans that I know personally believe they must tithe or give to their local church versus helping a neighbor who is about to lose their home. We are taught that are giving priorities start with our local church. This maybe true if the funds are being used properly. But if the majority of the money goes to utilities, staff, video equipment, landscaping, and surplus, then I would probably disagree. If we are building youth wings so our children can have video game rooms and a place to play basketball away from the “world” then I would probably say no. Again I am not against these things but when 80cent on a dollar of charitable giving never leaves the hands of those it is given to then I struggle.
I believe by greatest obligation is not to be build a state of the art building with all the amenities but to ensure that my neighbor can take his son to the doctor, or that my grandmother or elderly aunts and uncles can have both food and medicine. Not only that when the janitor at my job is working 3 jobs and have poor English, maybe I can slide them a few hundred bucks. When we give as a “church” we should be looking at ways to be blessing to others, praying that God would open doors for us to give to the less fortunate, to help fund missionary work. But again that typically takes “special fund raising” and also “missions week”. After you here the story another plate is passed around. While what you have given rather it be 5, 10, or 20% you only need to look up to see it.
I will say again I am not giving to the local church, but first there is no command in scripture and second when your local church looks more like an Entertainment Complex then I struggle. This is my personal conviction so I mean no harm.
I often have wondered when I was giving tithes, where all that money was going? It is more blessed to give than to receive, so who’s receiving what is being given?
Being in some tough situations, sometimes those in need will not say anything for fear of how they would be viewed. I have seen church members not want to give people money who have lost all their belongs due to a house fire. Why? Because the person had children out of wedlock. But the person is a true blue Christian, and has a need right? I would want to give my whole check to people with needs like this. When I have kept quiet about our needs, it’s because we don’t think the church will meet them or we will be viciously talked about. So what you state here is true and needs to be examined by us all.
lionel, you said:
Now let me ask again. I am not trying to be forceful but are what we doing today in our traditions somehow infringing on the direct commands to meet the needs of others? Are our multimillion dollar facilities, state of the art equipment and other such things preventing us from properly meeting the needs of others. Now let me clarify. I am not saying you can’t have these things. But what I have a problem with is:
well, i’m saying they shouldn’t have those things. what is the purpose of a Church acquiring property? can someone who believes there’s nothing wrong with this please tell me how you justify this biblically?
i have a lot of problems with this and i will mention them but i’d like to hear first, from those who support the Church owning property and having all of the same amenities that fancy hotels and resorts have.
Lionel-
Exactly.
How many times have we heard 1 Corinthians 16:1-4 taken out of context?
Does this verse teach tithing to the local church? No it does not.
Paul was encouraging the Corinthians to follow through with a freewill offering/collection they had indicated they would be a part of along with the Macedonian churches to relieve suffering in the Jerusalem church.
NOTE:
1. The collection was not for their own local group, building fund, staff salary etc.
2. The collection was not for the apostle Pails own needs.
3. The collection was not even for what people refer to as a church today, it was not for the Jerusalem churches staff salaries or building fund either (come on I’m being tongue in cheek here) it was for the real church it was for the saints-the people in Jerusalem who were in need because their property was being confiscated and they were being imprisoned for their faith in Christ.
4. No set amount or percentage is encouraged by Paul he said to give as you have been prospered. Some will give more and some will give less.
When I have heard this verse being taught, I have actually asked the speaker what needy saints were going to be helped with that offering. They just looked at me like I was a heretic.
Another time I heard a “stewardship teacher” who was brought in to help us get our finances in line so that we could help the “church” go into debt to build a new building. This guy actually used the Exodus story and the offering for the tabernacle to illustrate how we should give a pledge of what we would give each month over the next five years to pay off the debt. I pointed out to him that those verses did not support making a vow of giving projected income toward paying off a building. I asked him to think about it, theses ex-slaves had to be stopped from bringing more materials to Moses for the work as they had more than enough. Now where did they get all the loot? They did not get paid for their labors, Pharaoh made their situation increasingly worse as the Exodus approached-where did they get all that wealth and material? Did they find it in the desert? Of course not, it was given to them by God as they left the terror of the Lord compelled the Egyptians to give them clothes, money, materials as they left. The text says that they routed the Egyptians without their own standing army! When it came to the tabernacle, they did not make a vow to give future earned income, they gave what God had already given to them!
Again, I was looked at as a leper or heretic-but I will ask you who the false teachers are in this regard?
Stewardship is very important but what is being taught in the “church” is a waste of resources for all the wrong projects and for all the wrong reasons.
Now you know I am a heretic who in the world is the apostle Pail? You never heard of him? Grin.
Make that “Paul”-why can’t my spell check read my mind?
Mrs. Mav,
The common answer is “its not prohibited so it is lawful”. Now you are going to have to argue against silence.
KM,
Brother my sentiments exactly. I can’t for the life of me comprehend this. I believe that a lot of time there is a bunch of red tape. I have had people I know who had to go through budgeting classes and have their financial lives exposed just to receive benevolence. I wanted to tell them to have the church show them the pastor’s salary and benefit package and bonuses and all the other foolishness that goes on. This is horrible. There is no reason our brothers and sisters should go into debt to cover medical bills while the church gives appreciations and bonuses, and state of the art equipment and upgrades to their facilities. No one can prove that this is okay. It is a sham. Read this article and let me know what you think
http://assembling.blogspot.com/2008/08/love-one-another-if-you-have-nothing.html
Hutch,
Brother we are on the same page. Check this post out
http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/05/04/how-much-to-whom-and-who-should-know-a-rebuttle-of-my-own-post/
Lionel,
Man you’ve got to slow down on these topics.
It is like you are reading my mind. The Lord is really working something here.
What if my brother or sister is hurting, hungry or sick.
Do ,I then have to give the tithe to the usher and then hope they will take care of those needs? No! We are to be discerning and to give liberally as the Lord leads. Also if the proper order of giving was in operation then the government could close down the welfare and social security, medicare etc. How much money could be saved and used by the body if we didn’t try to out build our “church” neighbors. In the city where I live there is a main strip and we call it church row because of all the massive church buildings. A matter of fact there is one group that paid $4,000,000 for a plat of land off this road. They are just paying the interest on the payment. No building yet because they must first sale their other building.
Lord help us…………………………………….Steven O.
That article was on point. Man, it is a shame what is happening when brothers and sisters cannot open themselves up nor with the brethren be of the same mind. I like how the article aluded to the scripture of us loving one another. Is our love to the point we would sacrifice everything so another brother and sister could pay their rent? Instead to do all that you must become a member the church first? Man how are churches really would grow if we just got back to this:
And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:44-47 KJV)
Wouldn’t we really see the Lord move if we got back to this? I remember going to a church event at my son’s pre-school. I was approached by a leader there who began to give me the whole church membership speech, it really turned me off. It made me feel like they thought I was a sinner. Man, why couldn’t you just enjoy that I came out to your event? No, because more members equals more money to keep their big building up(yeah my son goes there for pre-school because they’re the cheapest ones in town that we can afford)! Point is, and that article really pointed it out, “what happened to love?”
Karsten Miller
I think if we are going to have a “meeting house/building” it should be a modest building and land that is paid for and should resemble one big kitchen with one huge circular table with chairs around it! Grin.
Yes, I am serious.
The idea is to outgrow facilities so that we can plant another church not build another larger building.
“well, i’m saying they shouldn’t have those things. what is the purpose of a Church acquiring property? “
Mrs. Maverick, The purpose of acquiring property is to have a place to worship God that’s big enough to sufficiently meet the the size of their congregation’s needs. When I lived in Miami we had a church that could seat 20,000 people. When we got too full for our sanctuary we started having a second worship service. When the sanctuary of both services were too full we started having a third service. Three services in one day is about all you can ask of a pastor, praise team, and choir. So when our sanctuary was too full for all three services, we actually had to have our elders turn people away from church. They had to or it would have been a fire hazard. But our pastor admitted to us he didn’t like to turn people away from God. So that is when we started building an even bigger sanctuary. We did it to meet the spiritual needs of our community. The people we were turning away were people that would not have usually gone to a church otherwise. And building a bigger one worked! Now they have a sanctuary that seats 80,000 people three times on sunday and they are not turning anyone away from God. Isn’t that a good thing?
“i have a lot of problems with this and i will mention them but i’d like to hear first, from those who support the Church owning property and having all of the same amenities that fancy hotels and resorts have. ”
Well, the Bible says to do everything to the glory of God. When Christians are building a new place of worship, a lot of them feel as if it should be made suitable for a king. Also, most of those amenities don’t come from tithes, but from people’s donations. Mrs. Smith wants to give money to the new building but feels as if it should go toward this or that. The church is better off if they accept it than if they refuse it. So naturally they accept it. Besides, if she wants to donate a $75,000 piano, maybe the music ministry will be better a s a result and draw more people in.
In John 12:3-8 Mary took a whole pound of expensive perfume and used it to wipe the feet of Jesus. Judas spoke up and complained about it. “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” Hey, that’s kind of like what you guys are saying. But Jesus rebuked him saying, “The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”
This is an odd lesson this day and age, but I believe we have a responsibility to give to God before we give to the poor. I agree we shouldn’t be wasteful with our money and splurge, but I’m not going to be the guy that judges a church just from their outward appearance. I’m much more prone to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they have nice things I thank God that He has blessed them, instead of holding a grudge because my church has less than theirs.
Hutch
When I go out on my missionary journey I’ll have to stop at your place to fellowship. I like the big kitchen as that is where I spend most of my time anyway. LOL
hutch, most times people that are turned away are not going to go to a different church. If a church is growing, most times it’s because they have a good mixture of great preaching and great music, etc – things most planted church don’t have
Was not the purpose of the temple (church building) system to offer sacrifice, the last sacrifice (Christ) has been offered, the Temple (Church building) has no redeeming value, the work of the institution here called the Church Building system of worship is man made, it is nothing but dead works, these dead works profit nothing. The argument is not silent it cries with a loud voice from scripture, Please see Heb 9:8-14,
Thanks to the Operator
D. A.
I just want to ask you to search the scriptures on some things. We are the temple of God. Jesus said, that true worshippers will worship Him in spirit and truth. Worship leaders are not mentioned in the New Testament. 1 Cor. 14 describes who and what to do during an assembly. I urge evryone to get on some web sites from the Voice of the Martyrs, Gospel for Asia and others. Check out the persecuted church. These people have “nothing” and yet give all. THEIR LIVES. They are persecuted for what they believe while we sit in our air conditioned fancy seated sanctuaries. Jesus had no place to lay His head and yet we want a place to worship Him. We are to be giving all for the sake of Christ. Paul was a poor man. He didn’t tell any of the believers to give money to build a sanctuary. There was an article here in a local paper about a new church sanctuary and I quote from the pastor; He said, “don’t think about this place costing $54 million that is not important.” WOW!! Then another place in the same article an older lady talked about their big new pipe organ. She said something of the effect; That if it helps enhance our worship to God then it is good. We have come to think that we must go to a building and worship and have someone lead us. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this. He is the one who helps us utter things we do not know. We don’t need a “proffessional” worship leader. I am not trying to sound to harsh it is just I am passionate about what the scripture says. We have become rich and have need of nothing and we do not know that we are wretched, poor, blind, and naked. God counsels us to buy from Him gold refined in the fire, that we may be rich; and clothed ,that the shame of our nakedness may not be revealed…
Again all out of Love, Steven O
Get rid of the flesh (Church building system) and the Spirit of God will enter.
Thank you D.A. for so perfectly articulating the mindset of the mega-church attender. You brought all the various rationales together very concisely. While there are many things I’d like to respond to, I’ll just keep it to this:
You said: “but I believe we have a responsibility to give to God before we give to the poor.”
God says:
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
James 1:27
In other words, the way we give to God is by giving to the poor. Your reference to John 12 ignores the context of Judas being the one questioning Jesus (remember he was the shady money-keeper…) and the fact that the woman was pouring the perfume on the actual feet of Jesus, because she was so grateful to be forgiven of her sins. This whole idea of doing things for the glory of God is a rationale that can be used to justify any decision or expenditure, no matter how unecessary it may actually be. There is no longer such a thing as wastefulness if it’s all done “for the glory of God”. The major assumption that goes along with that is the one that says the more people you have showing up to a service, the more glory God is getting. God is glorified when we show love to others, not when we get thousands of people to show up to a meeting. The whole idea that we have to have some great program and big venue in order to attract people so they can hear the gospel or be edified as believers is a total sham. People have just been conditioned into accepting that as a fact, but it’s not.
For me, I’d rather give fifty dollars to a guy standing on a corner, or to a family-member in trouble, than five to a local church with a building and a budget.
Daniel
steve-o
“Worship leaders are not mentioned in the New Testament.”
This doesn’t mean it is wrong to have worship leaders
“He didn’t tell any of the believers to give money to build a sanctuary.”
And he didn’t tell people not to.
“We have come to think that we must go to a building and worship and have someone lead us. Where is the Holy Spirit in all of this.”
I’ve seen the holy spirit do a lot of good things in buildings. I don’t think the Spirit is limited to working outside
“God is glorified when we show love to others, not when we get thousands of people to show up to a meeting.”
Well, when fifty people out of those thousands of people get saved I think God receives glory from that too.
Sorry, that last comment is directed at Daniel, not SOwens. Just wanted to remove any confusion
D.A please read Heb 9,
D.A.
I just want to point out what 1Corinthians 14 says about worship starting in vs. 26 “How is it then, brethren? Whenever “you” together, each of you has a psalm (not a worship leader), has a teaching (not just the pastor), has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation.”
1 Cor. 12:7 ‘But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one (not one but each one) for the profit of all.”
Also in 1 Cor.14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge the things which I write to you are the “commandments” of the Lord.”
Also in Acts 2:47 “praising God and having favor with all the people . And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.”
I would also question the salvation issue in the “church” evangelizing begins outside of the church. Not saying people can’t be saved in the building, but we are to go out to the people who are not saved. We got that backwards also since we started meeting in buildings. Read Matt. about praying to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers. Not bring the lost, but to send. Charles Spurgeon has a quote: something to the effect, that the worse thing the man has done is putting brick and mortar together. Meaning that we don’t go out to reach the lost anymore.
Again all in Love people, Steven
D.A.
one more thing I agree also that the Spirit can work in a building. Though I have seen Him being quenched many of times because He interrupted the order of the songs or teaching. So it can be both, but more likely that men won’t allow Him in. We have just put to much structure in the church to the point that we can have churches that operate the same way for years and are so oblivious that God hasn’t been in their presence for most of those years. They have bodies meeting but spiritually are dead. Again that can happen in a house also.
lionel, i’m quite familiar with that common answer, but i don’t think the Bible is altogether silent in this matter. not only this but that same “silent defense” has been used to justify many ungodly practices that aren’t expressly written down in black, white (and red). and yes, i believe that a local Church acquiring property and having a building “to worship” in is ungodly, hence God doesn’t get the glory from this. if we match up our practice of maintaining these structures against Scripture, i find us in error.
while i don’t see any Scriptures admonishing ” thou shalt not build buildings to meet in” neither do i not see one example of the Church doing this in the new testament. as a matter of fact, i see Scripture teaching God’s people to see themselves as God’s House. Acts 7:48-49, I Cor. 3:9, Eph. 2: 18-22, Heb. 3:6, 9:11.
if we are indeed God’s house, why do most assemblies become like the world in their endeavors to own property and real estate regardless of whether it’s a modest store front or a state-of-the-art, fully tricked out mega plex? why should our money go to support any of these structures? why do people seek for a name and a 501c3 status? and btw, if caesar (the gov’t) gave it to you, he can take it back.whose property does it belong to after many people have sown their funds into it? after a Church acquires the title/deed and someone decides to move on, do they get any dividends or shares from all the money they gave to help build that place? why do people keep saying they need a place to worship in- worship is a way of life, not a service to be performed only when we gather together.
of course i have many more questions but these are just a few that came to mind right now. i know the way i see this is an unpopular stance but i can’t in good conscience see any good purpose in supporting this method of us gathering together. aaaand since i’m a firm believer in people abiding by the dictates of their conscience, then if it seems right for you or them to follow this method so be it.
Lionel,
Have you ever read the little 40 page article “Embezzlement: The Corporate Sin of Christianity” by Ray Mayhew?
If not, shoot me an email and I’ll send you a PDF copy.
I think you’d get a huge blessing out of this based on what you’re saying here.
Love ya,
Keith Giles
(email me for the PDF at – “elysiansky” (at) hotmail (dot com))
to d. a.
i submit to you that in a structure holding any significant amount of people, it is impossible to know everyone on a first names basis, know who labors among you, know the needs of the congregants etc. besides this, sinners are certain to be in the mixture and i’m not supportive of Christians and sinners gathering together for “fellowship”.
praise teams, choirs, mime ministries, child care (oh, brother) and all that jazz are unnecessary. 3 services are indicative of the numbers game which i’m not a proponent of.
Mrs. Mav, you’ve asked a load of great questions, thanks for making a lot of good points.
If fifty people can get saved in a meeting with thousands of people, than God can reach those same people through those believers, outside of some service or event. (and without spending all those millions of dollars…) The main obstacle is that those thousands of attenders have been made to believe that God does most of his work on a stage, through some kind of production, or talented speaker. The truth is, God works through regular people, who’ve been revolutionized by the grace of God, when they simply open their mouths and share about what God has done in them, be it in a backyard, a bustop, on a lunch break, at a coffee shop, or wherever.
There are no walls that contain the Holy Spirit….
Daniel
Maverick lady, are your arguments that we should not have big buildings or that we should not have buildings at all? If you don’t think churches should have buildings at all, then don’t bother trying to argue why we shouldn’t have big buildings.
I think the point that has been made is that once you start down that path, (of buying land, building a building, etc.) it’s virtually inevitable that the thinking becomes about counting. Counting rears in seats, counting dollars in the plate, counting hands that are raised…. It becomes a completely superficial and worldly way of measuring ourselves as the body.
….”The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.” 1 Samuel 16:7
Daniel
Daniel, have you considered what the ramifications would be if all the churches in the US (never mind all around the world) shut down over night and sold their property? You think that would be better? Really? I, for one, am glad churches can be big or small and that no matter their size God uses both. I am particularly glad that lost and desperate people know where to turn to when they need help.
The church’s future is grim if the sunny day real estate lovin emo kids take over!
D.A.
I’ll let the scriptures do the talking since God doesn’t need us to help Him. I ask that you receive this in love…..
Romans 12: ” And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.”
James 1:26 “If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and doe not bridle his tongue but decieves his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.”
Acts 17: 24 ” God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, “does not” dwell in “temples” made with hands. Nor is He worshipped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He “gives” to all life, breath, and all things.”
Steven O.
Yes, I have considered the ramifications. I guess we’d have to ask God what he want to do with all that cash instead, I suppose he’d have an idea or two. Oh wait, He ALREADY told us… (I already quoted James earlier…)
If it were only true that lost and desperate people knew they could turn to the institutional church when in need. For ever person the IT has genuinely helped, there are a hundred who think that following Christ is a joke, because they see it all as just a way to get their money. The fact is that millions of people have been turned off to the gospel because we have ignored the clear teaching of scripture. People love to talk about how God still works within these man-made systems, but no one wants to talk about the huge scandal that the modern church is in the eyes of the world.
No one could accuse the early church of being about money…
(P.S. Sunny Day still rules, and I’m 30, so not really a kid…)
Another scripture that speaks for itself,
Acts2:42-45 ” And they continued steadfastly in the apostle’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of the bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together and had all things in common and “sold their possessions” and “goods”, and divided “them” among “all”, as anyone had need.”
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and “breaking bread from “house to house”, they at their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having “favor” with all the people. And the (Lord added) to the church daily those who were being saved.”
So if we did sell all the buildings then maybe we could do what they did in the book of Acts..
Steven
Daniel, I’m not disagreeing with you that corruption and scandals are bad. Understand me, though. You said:
“The fact is that millions of people have been turned off to the gospel because we have ignored the clear teaching of scripture.”
What clear teaching of scripture? There is no scripture anywhere that commands us not to have buildings. All you have is a straw man argument and extrapolations from scriptures like those SOwen brings up from Acts.
SOwen, you said:
“So if we did sell all the buildings then maybe we could do what they did in the book of Acts.”
Not a very good idea considering that after they sold all their property and distributed it amongst the brethren Paul had to go on mission trip after mission trip and asked for money in town after town so that he could send it back to the church in Jerusalem. It’s obvious whatever they did back in jerusalem didn’t work and now Paul was asking other churches to pick up the slack.
“Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem.” – 1 Corinthians 16:1-4
The building is of no effect, the house of God dwells in the believer, not in the building made of hands. Can a God save a person outside of the building?
Absolutely. Can man save a person out side the building, absolutely not, for the building is their God and that’s were he saves them unto their flesh.
Heb 9
“The fact is that millions of people have been turned off to the gospel because we have ignored the clear teaching of scripture.”
As opposed to the millions of people who have been turned on to Christ through church buildings and professional worship services, right?
D. A.,
Man listen, your comments disturbed me tremendously. The mindset you expressed is so unbiblical that I literally screamed as I read it. But before denouncing you with a derogatory label, let me ask a few questions for clarity:
1. You typed: “The purpose of acquiring property is to have a place to worship God that’s big enough to sufficiently meet the the size of their congregation’s needs.”
Here’s my question: What do you consider the “congregation’s needs”?
2. You typed: “Three services in one day is about all you can ask of a pastor, praise team, and choir.”
Here’s my question: Why? And how many other days of the week are these people available to serve?
3. You typed: “So when our sanctuary was too full for all three services, we actually had to have our elders turn people away from church. They had to or it would have been a fire hazard. But our pastor admitted to us he didn’t like to turn people away from God.”
Here’s my question: Does turning the people away from your building equal turning them away from “church”? Please explain. Does turning the people away from your “church” equal turning them away from “God”? Isn’t God just a prayer or a bible away? As a matter of fact, isn’t God omnipresent?!
4. You typed: “Besides, if she wants to donate a $75,000 piano, maybe the music ministry will be better a s a result and draw more people in.”
Here’s my question: To what do you want to “draw” people into? Show a place in the Old or New Testament where music was used to “draw” people to Christ? Please read John 12:32 and compare your statement to it.
5. You typed: “In John 12:3-8 Mary took a whole pound of expensive perfume and used it to wipe the feet of Jesus. Judas spoke up and complained about it. “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” Hey, that’s kind of like what you guys are saying. But Jesus rebuked him saying, “The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me.”
Here’s my comment: ARE YOU SERIOUS?! Are you comparing what was done for our Lord Jesus Christ in preparation for His burial with what people do for a building? Judas objected because he wanted the money for himself, not because he was truly concerned for the poor. (vs.6) Did you really read this account? Jesus’ point in his statement about the poor was that the disciples and others only had a limited to do anything physically for Him, but that they would always have an opportunity to help the less fortunate. SMH!
6. You typed: “If they have nice things I thank God that He has blessed them, instead of holding a grudge because my church has less than theirs.”
Here’s my comment: You have truly been duped by this mess. You have equated the possession of things with the blessing of God. Please do a cross reference search in your bible on the word “rich” in the New Testament. Notice all of the warnings against riches and possessions.
D. A. for all of the acclaim that you have given this “church”, your lack of biblical soundness speaks volumes. You’ve twisted or completely left out a biblical context to all of your statements. That church may have a large facility but it appears to only be facilitating ignorance.
The protections of the idols is at and all time high sorry no buildings what so”ever” let God’s people go.
Stephen,
You said, ” not a very good idea” considering what happened later with Paul asking for money to be sent back to Jerusalem.
Well, brother as your name is Stephen you must not forget what happened to another man named Stephen in the book of Acts. Also in Acts 8:1 ” Now Saul was consenting to his death. At that time a great persecution arose against the “church”(Did Paul persecute a building?) which was at Jerusalem; and “they” (the building or the People?) were all “scattered” throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.”
So there you go maybe they again the people not a building used that money to move as they were “scattered”. We need to see this in order to be correct.
Again all in Love, Steven
My man mike has been telling you people Hebrews 9:1 to start with your worldly statuary that’s what it is! You are defending religion not the Gospel. We are “all” the priesthood
sorry people. Pastor’s please don’t be offended it’s not about you it’s about the body!!!!
DTG, Amen!!!
As to the others also,
All of the answers are in the scripture. If it is silent about something that doesn’t justify our doing it. God gave us all the answers in the word. The WORD became flesh. The word and the comforter who will tell you all things. The Holy Spirit. He will confirm all things with “the word”. Men and sisters, we need to keep it in the word. Yes read Hebrews 9:1, Read Genisis to Revelation. You will see that all we need is in the “word”. Not man’s wisdom which is what the whole scripture is silent issue is about. It brings about a justification for something that is not in the “word”. Mans wisdom profits us not>
Amen!!!!
Thanks SOwen, you said it before I could. Yeah, at the time 1 Cor. was written the believers in Jerusalem were under intense persecution, and in great need. They were no longer able to meet like they did in Acts, because the Jewish religious leaders were intent on stamping them out…
So it wasn’t like the act of taking money and distributing among those who were in need “failed”, God just chose to send the gospel out of Jerusalem through that persecution.
I’ve pretty much concluded that if a person has made up their mind that building churches and paying pastors and all that is okay, then there is no amount of scripture or reasoning that will be enough to convince them otherwise. I guess that shouldn’t be surprising, because to say that those things are unbiblical is acknowledge that so much time, effort and money are being spent on the wrong things. Nobody is eager to embrace a truth that will bring condemnation from friends and family. It is the ultimate incarnation of the already adopted phrase, “an inconveniant truth”….
Oh, Stephen, I checked out your blog, left you a note in the experiences and suggestions section… Later
daniel, i see you understand my point, brother.
Hey let me ask a question to all who argue from silence.
Is it okay for me to give French Fries and Grape Soda for the Lord’s Supper since there is no prohibition of it?
Steven-
You said:
Not a very good idea considering that after they sold all their property and distributed it amongst the brethren Paul had to go on mission trip after mission trip and asked for money in town after town so that he could send it back to the church in Jerusalem. It’s obvious whatever they did back in jerusalem didn’t work and now Paul was asking other churches to pick up the slack.
“Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem.” – 1 Corinthians 16:1-4
NOTE: The collection Paul took up from the Corinthians and the Macedonians was to help the Saints, not to help fund their floundering building program or to buy their property back for a place for them to meet, but to help them as their personal properties were being seized and their family members were being thrown into jail. They were being denied the ability to have gainful employment because of their faith in Christ.
Some were murdered for their faith.
Having a voluntary offering taken up for a group of saints and under persecution is not a commentary on their being off base with their support and love for one another. It just means they were being viciously persecuted and some were facing starvation, many had to flee with what they ahd on their backs.
BTW, there are groups of saints/churches who are in this position right now, even though desperately poor or living under persecution and even facing the prospect of death for their faith in Christ, they still do their best to meet each others needs.
I think we should take up a voluntary offering and send it to them.
What do you think?
Blessings in Christ.
Sorry, I see others have already made the point I just made! Grin.
I should have just said.
Amen.
nope, no prohibition against it- but we have an example from the Master Himself. if you want to get down like that, then do you.
Lionel, all I’m saying is how can someone take such a dogmatic stance on an issue and condemn people for practicing it when the Bible IS silent on that issue? If you agree with having small group Bible studies on Sunday mornings instead of “such and such baptist church worship service” then go ahead and practice it. You won’t hear any condemnation from me because I believe God can work through that kind of setting. But why am I being condemned for going to church? Really, that’s what it’s come down to? God has worked through churches for hundreds of years and now all of a sudden it’s 2008 and they’re not good enough anymore for God to work in?
I believe there are historical passages of the Bible and instructive passages of the Bible. We are not to follow the prophets or the saints’ examples every single time in historical record because they were fallen people and sinned. This is why I obey David’s commands in the Psalms, but don’t follow his example when it comes to polygamy. However, Christ was perfect, and His example was perfect, so when he showed us how to take communion, I believe we should follow that example. However, when the apostles divied up their lands and spread the money between them, I don’t think I have to follow their communist example because they were fallen people who did make mistakes. Now if someone can give me a better argument than “that’s not how the apostles did it” and can show me how God does not receive glory through modern church services then I am all ears. In the mean time, though, all I’m getting is a straw man argument and a lot of verses I don’t disagree with.
If the Apostles got their commands and ecclesiology from Christ why do we chooose to do otherwise? Jesus never commanded that we take bread and wine, why not hamburgers and Coca Cola (Pepsi if you nasty LOL).
I never condemned you. This is an open blog and just like posted stuff they post stuff and people work them out.
I am troubled that you don’t feel we must follow the practice of the Apostles, but we should follow the practice of Jesus. What exactly did He charge them to do in Matthew 28 except build His church? How do you know you are following Jesus’ example? The Apostles may have lied (they wrote 50% of the information about Jesus). I don’t get where you are going friend. Do you also wash feet? Jesus did that.
D.A.,
Paul thought he was doing God’s will when he persecuted the believers. Also Paul did state to “imitate” him, and who did he imitate? Jesus.
To say they are communist is wrong. It may have been socialist, but that is how God has always did things He gives and takes away. Read some of the old testament kings and see how they had gone astray and then years later some would come along and realize they were wrong. When was the real last move of God amongst the nation. Oh let’s say the great awakening in with George Whitefield. And he started out preaching on his father’s grave, because the”church” wouldn’t allow him to preach. Then you got Finney who tried to do God’s work, but instead messed it up. I say tried since it was because of him we now have the “sinners prayer” which by the way is not in the scripture either. He got results alright. Because he used a man made method to get people “saved”. Read the history of the sinners prayer you will see some interesting things. (I may have just opened another can of worms), but truth must be told. Read Ian Murrays acount through the pamphlet ” The invitation system” from The banner of Truth web site. You see where it gets real dangerous to use the silent issue. Anyway I am trying to get off of this computer so I can tend to my family.
Lionel, again a wonderful post Brother.
Steven O.
Lionel,
I would also add the shame in the fact that a lot of churches never fund missionary work. I am apart of a church where I am seeing this happen for the first time in my life and it is pretty amazing. We have about 5 or 6 missionaries in our church who are able to go proclaim the gospel around the world from the monetary gifts of the members.
It is so amazing to me because whenever they come back from the different mission trips they get in front of the church and have a slide show showing us their experience and how our gifts helped them to do what they do. I had always wanted to go on a mission trip to another country but I always thought it wasn’t possible since I am married and have little children but in being apart of a church that is active in mission work I have learned that there are organizations for couples as well as families.
Right now our church rents a school cafeteria on Sunday afternoon but since it is so expensive (Hawaii) we are praying together as a body on not renting and having service in various places so we can put the money we pay in rent to better use in missions and ministry to the poor and to the community all for the glory of God.
We also started looking into ways to get more involved in our community and have found numerous areas where we can serve.
Great post! Your post really made me think of the things that we could do as the church if the money wasn’t tied up in expensive mortgage payments and expensive equipment purchases. I guess this also ties into the post you did on the purpose of the church. Are disciples being made or are people remaining perpetual infants?
Grace & Peace,
Shatoyia
Wow, this post turned out to be quite a conversation!
One last comment, on the whole argument (which I’ve heard countless times…) that says God’s been at work through the traditional church, so how can you condemn it?
Let me ask this:
Was God at work when they made a somebody Pope?
Was God still at work when Constantine made Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire?
Was God still at work during the Crusades?
Was God still at work when European Conquistadors decimated entire populations of Native Americans, in the name of Christ?
Was God at work when Judas sold out Jesus for thirty pieces of silver?
The bible and all of history is full examples of people abusing the name of God and Jesus, yet still the gospel has prevailed in the lives of individuals in the midst of those times and actions.
To point out that God has been at work, changing people, saving people, loving people, bringing people to the truth, does not automatically condone the actions of men in that period. God is always working. No matter how off course or misguided we might be, He is always seeking the lost, and He always accomplishes His will, but that doesn’t gives a green light to continue doing what scripture CLEARLY tells us we are not to do.
God alone gets the credit, not any building, not any program, not any person. He doesn’t need any of those things…..
Sorry Danny boy, I don’t see R. C. Sproul and John MacArthur goin around killin many indians. Maybe that’s just me, though.
“but that doesn’t gives a green light to continue doing what scripture CLEARLY tells us we are not to do.”
Sure would like to see this command you’re referring to
Lionel, the New Testament never once commands believers to use instruments when they worship or even gives one example of 1st century Christians using musical instruments. The argument all along has been, “Yes, but the New Testament never once commands us NOT to use instruments.” So I guess to you, since one’s allowed to argue from silence, then no one should be allowed to use music in worship. Sometimes this website just has so much to offer . . .
So I guess to you, since NO one’s allowed to argue from silence, then no one should be allowed to use music in worship.
Shatoyia
Very good point to make. I rent 2 community venues in my area and use them as an outreach to children and teens and I honestly believe that I would not have had the same positive response if I tried to do the same thing in a “church”
Furthermore the debate about church mortgages could be applied to our own lives. I have 1 or 2 friends who refuse to even have a home mortgage. I respect their view although I don’t necessarily hold to it. What we try to practice is to encourage each other in “simple” living. I accept what might be simple for some may be extravagant to others. But I try to avoid a heavy material lifestyle that could prove to be a stumbling block to my christian brother or sister.
I actually had another set of friends who tried to stipulate what they meant by “simple” An example was that they wouldn’t purchase a brand new car. As you can imagine, it fell apart because they became each others Holy Spirit rather than evaluating each case on its own merit. I’m a keen advocate of the simple life and a life that allows me to give more to missions but at the same time experience has shown that even in this sincere desire, pride can creep in and seperate good friends.
I suppose it leads me to a quick final point about ecclesiology. My background is from a led Reformed Baptist Church. I moved to another part of town and now attend a Presbyterian church. Initially I preferred the ecclesiology of the Baptists yet I now find I’m enjoying the Presbyterian system. Is it because I’ve change my view? No It’s because a system is only as good as the people. At my church we have a minister, but he is very, very different from the authoratative, pedestal type minister led church I was accustomed to. This minister refuses to be called anything other than his first name. I could go on but my main point is yes, there are issues with what many so called churches today, but remember any system is only as Godly as the people who operate under it.
(apologies if I went on a bit Lionel, I don’t have quite the gift as some of your posters!!!)
Hey D.A,
I think we are conversing pass one another. I am saying what you are saying. On one point people say you can’t do that because it is not in the bible (Seeker Sensitive, Rock Bands, Christian Rap) but the same folks would turn and say “well Jesus never prohibited this or that”. So I actually agree with you. I am saying be consistent.
Shatoyia,
Thanks for stopping and by and encouraging a young brother! LOL!!! Seriously how is life on the island, tell that Godly husband of yours I said hello. Is everything working out, I have been praying for you guys.
Sorry, Lionel, I thought you were saying argument of silence as in when people say “there’s no command not to, so why not.” I must be used to us disagreeing but I will pay closer attention in the future. Sorry about the confusion
People,
I am conflicted here. Someone please help me out. If the Bible (word of God) is infallible… why is there so much confusion? Some of you are debating about the meaning of biblical verses. God said, “Let there be light.” No one can debate that there is light…. Right?
What up Lionel… Sorry for the long hiatus. I’ve been traveling and training for most of the Summer. If you wish, I can remain quiescent and respect the positive flow of things. Or…… well you know me….
CP,
Whats good homie I had been visiting your blog like everyday. I thought you had been raptured! LOL!!!! Man you know you can bring the noise whenever you feel like. But bring the noise homeboy. LOL