Here is the verse:
16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
What does the verse above look like? It either is a “a church full of ministers” or “a minister full of the church”. I think that is pretty clear. But let me ask which one do we see today (in upward of 90%) of our assemblies? I ask because of this. When someone is sick, in physical need, when their marriage is on the rocks, someone is in pain due to the loss of a loved one, someone is struggling with depression, someone has sinned and needs to be rebuked and restored, when someone is struggling with a tough doctrine, or when someone just needs to talk, who usually takes care of this? Who is usually at the hospital or someone’s home visiting the sick? Who is usually counseling a young couple who’s marriage is unraveling? Who does the teaching, who does the exhortation, who does the admonishing, who sings the songs, who makes the decisions, who drives the vision?
Thus, the question is do we have a church full of ministers or a minister(s) full of the Church? The next question is why (yes I am answering the question of who)? Why is there a select few and in many of the cases a select one who does the functioning of the body? I believe it is because believers are not equipped. The next question is why are they not equipped, but these select few or this select one is?
I spent 9 years in the Army. 6 of those years were as a NCO (or Non Commissioned Officer). During my ratings one area that I was evaluated on was the competence of my soldiers. In other words if my soldiers were not going before the board or getting promoted or if I got killed and they couldn’t function apart from my leadership, I would lay a goose egg. Why? As a leader my job is to ensure that all of my soldiers could function at a level of competency. Why do I include this?
I think many “leaders” today only equip a few. These few will become “pastors” and they will only equip a few. All the while maintaining the clergy/laity distinctions and solidifying their positions as leaders. If we don’t do this on purpose we do it subconsciously however it is being done. Most can’t read their bibles for themselves so they need a “great expositor” to “faithfully handle” the scriptures. While I can take a few months to a year to offer free Greek classes (why let that 30K plus of seminary money go to waste). I can give the people the responsibility to faithfully meet each others needs. Even if that meant making myself unavailable. But, hey that won’t work will it? Because the “church” (the building, programs and names) must continue and the only way it can continue and function properly is by me keeping ti functioning and continuing properly. See where I am headed?
Most “ministers” entrench themselves in ministry by not properly equipping the saints to function as the body of Christ. So we have dependent congregants and co-dependent pastors and the church propels in perpetual infancy forever. We didn’t leave Rome we just changed the name and did a little cosmetic work. Listen to me carefully. Until we equip the body to function on its on we fail them miserably! We have created “Christian Country Clubs” and to get in you have to get a M.Div, Th. M, or Ph.D to get into it. We speak in seminal language and have our own conferences to ensure that the non club members never get to close. All the while we say we are being “faithful ministers” of the Gospel.
The end goal of equipping is maturity! We should have the motto “push em out the nest”. We are functioning as Christian Communism. No one is excited about Castro dying because someone else will fill his role in that regime. There is no more hope for democracy than it is in China. Likewise, until we are fully equipping the believers to be mature, full functioning and contributing members (not joining the choir, the usher board, the hospitality committee, the pastoral support and cheer leading team, or the benevolence committee) we are failing them. As long as we keep information and functions only for the elite they will continue to walk around in spiritual diapers, looking for a bottle or breast to eat the next day.
So I ask you is your church full of ministers or is the minster(s) full of the church?
Lionel-
You are on a roll!
Lionel,
I agree with Hutch brother you’re on a roll. Do we as parents continue to wish we can change diapers when our children are infants. Do we not want to see that first step, hear the word Da Da and then want to see them go on their first day of school. And then we marry them off etc. We can’t hold them back all of their lives. We are stewards given the great opportunity to raise them up to be Godly citizens and future disciples. That is what the assembly should be doing from the first day of conversion to sending out. We should be eager to equip the whole body in order to see them mature and then go out. We wouldn’t need a purpose driven church if the “church” was doing it’s purpose as the bible points out. Again though unless the Lord opens peoples eyes we will be fighting against the goades. Not to say that we shouldn’t point out the error. Paul was Saul doing what he thought was the work of God until Jesus met him. Praise God keep bringing these things to the forefront.
Steven O.
Hey Steven,
You said:
“We wouldn’t need a purpose driven church if the “church” was doing it’s purpose as the bible points out.”
This will be the title of my next post or one of the upcoming ones. This is called intellectual borrowing! LOL.
I think it will start with planting brother. As you and Phil do a work in Conway and become disciple makers, you will guys will have to go for Little Rock and the surrouding areas. You will have to raise believers up and plant these type of churches and as we have the opportunity to meet with others who are not in organic communities we have to inform them of what biblical Christanity consists of. They don’t need to leave there churches (I won’t leave my gathering anytime soon, unless the Lord tells me to) but I will work to ensure that all the believers become priests and minsiters. I think we have a strong inclanation towards this already and most people who came through the Plumbline College minstry are monster minsters and most after finishing 4 years in that ministry can become elders anywhere. They probably wouldn’t agree with my ecclisiology but they would agree on the all ministers part at least in part.
But it will take us. As I learn more and read more and have opportunities to build with like minded believers God may lead me that way. Ultimately I want to be part of a Church in the City sort of like what Christ Fellowship of Kansas City does. They now have 5 full functioning assemblies but Tyris can give you more information on that. They aren’t loosely goosey either. They are solid Reformed Brethern who would be more conservative that most churches.
Lionel,
Good post brother. I don’t know if we can put the whole blame only on leadership though. I have seen in other churches and even my own church where classes are offered on doctrine and basics of the faith and people just will not come out. One of the plusses of being in the military is that for lack of better terminology those who you were given command of were “forced” to listen. So the question for those who do try to follow the biblical model and teach sound doctrine and disciple is what do you do when no one is listening. Is it still your fault? I know for instance at my home church my pastor (who also happens to be my father) only teaches one class. All other class offerings we have are taught by others in the church and they do not have to carry the label “minister” to teach a class. But as I mentioned attendance can be low. That is all I have to say on it. I agree with those above though…you have been on a roll.
Hey Carey,
That excites me. But let me ask. What are the end goal of these classes? I think what Steve, Huth, and myself are fighthing for is something that leads people into functional leadership maybe even church planting in home model or some other functional gathering. I think this is why our view may be a bit radical. My end goal is to not have people sit under me to better understand my sermon but to be radical disciple makers.
This was our exact conversation this morning regarding the body of Christ functioning as a unit verses being centered around one man teaching. How far have we leaped from Biblical Chrisianity and the model that was laid from the scriptures? Where in the scriptures do we see a One man show? On the other hand we hear time and time again the Body of Christ. It is a sad thing that most churches would not be able to function if they lost their pastor to exegete the text. On the contrary every man in the church should be able to do exactly what the pastor does and some even better. The pastor should be sharpened just like the members in the fellowship. sometimes even the pastor getting more from everyone than the people getting from his teaching session.
Ephesians 5:19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What does this mean? and is it mirrored in our churches today?
Another/Colossians 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
1 Cor 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
Carey something that would entice me to come to a “class” would be the fact that it is an interactive class where it more closely models what comes natural-that is conversation. Dialogue versus monologue. Just a thought.
Check out this article from my brother Jason here in KC/he is along the same lines. His site here http://urbanreformation.com/
A couple of years ago John Piper came out with this book Brothers, We Are Not Professionals: A Plea to Pastors for Radical Ministry . This is a collection of 30 articles that Piper had written to church leaders. He talks of insulated & Isolated American Christianity. He speaks of American’s waking from the dream world that being a Christian is normal and safe. Piper sees that the professionalizing of the ministry has done it great harm and often killed or maimed many a congregation. He calls pastors to abandon their worldly views of seeing their pastoral ministry as a professional vocation and to reclaim the view of God’s call as a prophet.
My thought this morning from reading Jim Spencer’s Post called ‘ Every Believer Called & Equipped ‘ circles around the fact that we seemingly still have a popish mentality, as we believe because we have pastors and deacon’s or elders often without thinking about it in any purposeful way, we make them out to be our spiritual hands in all aspects of spiritual life. They do bible study for us, they read for us, they pray for us, they fast for us, they reach out to the lost for us and yes we have they that do missions for us.
We must cast down the notion that we are not responsible for these things ourselves, that we have no part in discipleship or spiritual disciplines because we have those who are trained in the church to do these things in our place. Much like in Catholicism, the priest becomes our mediator or the virgin Mary our intercessor before God, as if God is somehow just outside our grasp, but at the fingertips of those who are trained or have other some other merit. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man, but this hasn’t changed out mentality of wanting not to have a relationship ourselves with God but someone to do it for us. Democracy and professionalism have the congregations of America looking to the leaders of the church as they grow in spiritual maturity, as an excuse for the believer not to grow our own spiritual maturity.
I don’t think these things are carried out in any specific or purposed way, only that we fill our lives up with so many other things to, as my last post talked about, the neglect of those things that are spiritual and eternal. Someone said to me one time the only kind of “Drift” that there is to drift “Away.”
Once the leadership reads the books about not being professionals but prophets, we the congregations of America, need to take heed of the notion about putting the leadership’s spiritual maturity & spiritual disciplines on a pedestal, as justification to be a slacker in the things of God ourselves.
This is a grave injustice done by we who sit in the pews to the exclusion of all else.
Lionel,
Most of our classes either talk about doctrine or application of the word to every day living. Some are just basic Bible study which just takes either a person’s life (we just finished one on David) or a book of the Bible and explain and discuss. Partcipants are free to ask questions and I have frequently seen our teachers let go of the “curriculum” to deal with a pressing question or if the conversation seems to go in another direction. Another example when my dad did his last class on doctrine he asked the partcipants what most of their questions were centered on and based the class and discussions around that.
Tyris,
I hear you and I think we have this and honestly our attendace for this past series has improved.
I think for a lot of leaders and even I have struggled with this is what we consider successful. So on one hand I wish more people were getting this information but on the other hand the retention I have seen of people who have been coming consistently is very encouraging.
The so-called Church is raising a nation of spiritual misfits, thus the body is weak, fearing man and not God. Keeps it coming?
Hey everyone,
Let me put this scripture or scriptures out there and they can answer themselves:
“The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into “HIS” harvest.” Matt. 10:2
Then once you read this go to the other scriptures that describe the giftings. Romans 12:3-9, 1Corinthians 12:12-31, Ephesians 4:1
Are our “churches” doing this? Are we equipped to be going out as laborers? Or are we just continually being fed and becoming engorged which is a sin also. How many talents have we been given? And yet we let just a few “leaders” do all of the work because that is what we have been taught to do. Can anyone say Laodician or Nicolatins? These issues we are discussing are in Revelation. Brothers we need to repent of the way we are doing things and be humble to admit we are wrong. I’m not pushing house church over a building. No, I am pushing what is biblical. What has been laid out in the word. Wouldn’t we be guilty of adding to when there is no need? The need is to be submitting to what God has laid out in scripture. Instead the modern day church focus’s everything on Pastor/teachers. They were never supposed to have that much authority.
The body is supposed to be all equal. I’m not saying do away with the leadership, but to put it in it’s proper role.
Let the first be last. He who is the least. Where is CHRIST in our local assemblies. Oh we don’t need Him we have our…you name it. We have done just what the Pharisees and Sadduces have done. We made more laws. Brothers there is liberty in Christ. We have to stop letting our traditions trump scripture. Or we will be no better off than Sodom and Gommorah.
Anyway Love, Peace and Grace to all in Christ……..Steven O.
They will not let God’s people go remember Egypt. Maybe some plagues will help this sad state of the buildings/ministers/baby bottles/sheep mind set for ever/ did I say Ephesians 4:12 to16 why is this in the bible? They say we are not catholic wow I couldn’t tell the difference. There will
be another reformation if it was left up to me. To free God’s people from this nonsense that has blinded people into thinking they are doing God’s will. I fell “sorry” for new converts they can’t see it coming until it’s to late for them. They will get ambush from the start with this false Christian/Judaism’s methods of thinking. By the time they start to read there bibles they will be shaking their heads staying I can’t find this in the bible it will be to late. The state of this body of church “today” is 2 timothy 3:7 in my eyes/ears. Btw I was ambush 18yrs ago that was then this is now.
Cool how the topic in this posst connects with the last one, isn’t it? Having a building or special place to worship simply reinforces all the clergy/laity divisions more than they really benefit anyone. I was thinking about a comment to your previous post where someone asked about what do you do if have 50 or more people who want to worship together? Well, if we don’t need specially-trained leaders, then they don’t all have to meet in one place to hear a dynamic speaker every week. Everything connects. More and more I am realizing that dividing up truth into little boxes labeled ecclisiology, or theology, or missions, as though they’re all seperate issues, is really misleading. It’s all part of the gospel! The truth is the truth.
Daniel
Cool how the topic in this post connects with the last one, isn’t it? Having a building or special place to worship simply reinforces all the clergy/laity divisions more than they really benefit anyone. I was thinking about a comment to your previous post where someone asked about what do you do if have 50 or more people who want to worship together? Well, if we don’t need specially-trained leaders, then they don’t all have to meet in one place to hear a dynamic speaker every week. Everything connects. More and more I am realizing that dividing up truth into little boxes labeled ecclisiology, or theology, or missions, as though they’re all seperate issues, is really misleading. It’s all part of the gospel! The truth is the truth.
Daniel
Lionel,
This a classic example of the inability of church leadership to build a true community of faith. Where all are held accountable to each other. There is a fear in the body of Christ to truly train up leaders who are truly carrying out 2 Tim. 2:2.
If I have heard it ince I have heard it twice that God only speaks to one person in the church. This man centered though is killing the growth of the laymember that has no call to pastor but want to understand scripture in its entirety.
If we ever really get a grip on what the truth in the bible holds what an awesome sight it will be.
Brian-
I agree with your comments, but I also believe that 2 Timothy 2:2 is only part of the equation. The pastor/elders/older more mature brothers and teacher are given to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. The entire church as a priesthood of believers has the work of the ministry to perform and sacrifices to offer, namely a living sacrifice of their whole lives.
The main function of the pastor/elders is one of equipping the saints to perform the ministry. The should be leading by example as servant leaders and not rulers making the decisions in place of the congregation that alone is given the final oversight in decisions regarding the church.
A large part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, empower the saints for service through spiritual giftedness and to testify of the Lord Jesus Christ. Shepherding really does not necessitate an invasive intrusion or hyper scrutiny of a believer’s life. The sins that require church discipline have a way of becoming quite self evident in someone life. I believe in a recent post the sin of adultery was given. I guarantee that the wife that was offended against in that situation knew that something was beginning to go wrong. When it was clear to the wife that her husband was involved in a relationship with another woman it would be easily verified by 1-2 witnesses as required to proceed with church discipline. I once did a bible study for my own personal edification that I entitled where does the Holy Spirit lead me? I cross referenced every verse in the NT that talks about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the lives of a born again believer indwelt by the power and presence of the Holy Spirit to determine where He leads. Now, I know that believers can and do fall into sin, believe me I know-but if there is no conviction of the Holy Spirit in believer’s life over sin-can I say Houston we have a problem?!? I embrace the biblical doctrine of church discipline, but some congregations have not used discernment and seem to evidence an unspoken mistrust of the ministry of the Holy Spirit and his program of progressively sanctify and maturing a believer, and seem to have taken it upon themselves to take the place of the Holy Spirit. Believe me the Holy Spirit will do a better job. We need to focus on bearing with one another and loving one another and building up one another. Believe me if someone is caught in a sin that requires church discipline it will be very apparent, it just has a way of showing.
The other part of the equation is that we are told as a group of believers and as individuals to study to show ourselves approved as workmen who need not be ashamed rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I believe that most believers who need to be ashamed at their lack of biblical wisdom-(not biblical knowledge) is due to the fact that they themselves have not studied to show themselves approved. Notice that the main reason for bible study is not to win the bible quiz but to be approved workmen-might I suggest workmen who have been equipped to do the work of the ministry? Spiritual truth is spiritually discerned so someone who is born again will have a desire to read God’s Word, will progressively mature in his/her understanding of it and will be progressively sanctified and grow into a workman who more and more need not be ashamed.
Question: Since God is no respecter of men and He would even save the likes of me and give me a desire to study His Word, then why do so many professing believers never read it and study to show themselves to be approved? What went wrong? Is it the “preachers” fault? No it is not the preachers place to do the work of the Holy Spirit, believe me it is beyond his ability! You and I are nobody special outside of who we are in Christ, yet we study God’s Word and grow-what is going wrong in so many professing believers’ lives that they do not have a desire to read and devour God’s Word? What is it really no big deal to them? Might I be so bold to suggest that maybe the Holy Spirit is not leading them into all truth because they are not regenerate? Am I way out of line? God does not fail-He says He is committed to confirming us into the image of His Son. Now you and I do not keep all of our commitments, but God does.
I have read many wonderful comments on this blog from men and women who are obviously maturing in Christ and have an excellent grasp of the scriptures; my guess is that the vast majority of us learned what we know of God’s word from diligent personal study and not from any one man’s sermons. One of the places that the Holy Spirit leads us as children of God is into what is termed as into all truth, He testifies/bears witness of who Christ is and He leads us into all truth.
Now do not get me wrong, I love expository preaching and have had the privilege of teaching God’s Word for many years and even preaching from a “pulpit” on a number of occasions, I have even been to John Macarthur’s Shepherds Conference and I took all the expository preaching electives! But I have had to come to the conclusion that a one man pulpit and a seated priesthood is not taught in scripture. The fact is we have created a position for men that is impossible for them to occupy and that they where never intended to occupy. We have one great High Priest in Heaven and we are a new peculiar race of people called new creations in Christ and a Holy Royal Priesthood who carry out the work of the ministry.
Stepping off soapbox.
BTW: Laymen is not a biblical term or concept, it was a bad idea that took shape around the 3rd century with disatrous results within the church. Clergy and laity are synonymous terms meaning the people of God.
Hutch,
“Might I be so bold to suggest that maybe the Holy Spirit is not leading them into all truth because they are not regenerate?”
That is a bold statement indeed but I am not so sure that I agree with you on that statement. It is very true that God is conforming us to his image but that is not an instantanous action. That is a perptual action that is and will be ongoing until we leave.
Now maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying but this process of “leading or guiding unto all truth” can be a long road. So the leading may be hinged up becasue there is not deep sincere passion to read and study the word. But this same believer has a deep sincere to spend time in prayer. So their guidance is provided during their time in prayer. Now i hold strong to the absolute need for the written word but many have not that same passion. my flaw would be that I do not spend enought time in prayer. But i do study the scriptures without limits. So does that disqualify becasue I do not have the same passion for time in prayer. I hope not. I know atheist and brothers from the nation of Islam that have a better undertsanding of scriptures than the majority of pastors. So the mere studying of scriptures can not be the salvific factor that we use to gage.
I am persuaded that those who have a love for God know that their “sword game” is weak in the same fashion as I know that my prayer life is weak. So the leading in all truth is nestled in the flaw that God then brings to our attention one way or another. But I can not say that they are disqualified them from regeneration based on their lack of study habits in scripture.
hi guys,
first- i’m glad that hutch called out the term layman as not being biblical because i was going to mention it myself. this is one word we should abolish from our Christian vocabulary. we are all called saints.
i remember i inquired about a sister in the congregation doing something, and was told, “oh, no they’re JUST a laymember”.
this is the attitude carried with that word- that the person isn’t AS significant as the “titled” folk, so the sooner that word is laid to rest the better.
i also agree with brian that for some of us, while we may be strong or disciplined when it comes to studying God’s Word, at the same time, we may have a weak or ineffective prayer life. or we may talk to God very often but neglect the study of His Word in comparison to the amount of time we spend in prayer.
i think we are aware of the areas where we need to grow in and therefore, i believe we are all striving for balance because we know that the one “discipline”, will be so much more effective when coupled by the same amount of dedication to the other one. but again, our Teacher, the Holy Spirit is the only One who can accomplish this in us.
thanks to all who are sharing because i’m enjoying the dialogue.
Brian-
“the ministry of the Holy Spirit and his program of progressively sanctify and maturing a believer”
I guess my overall point was missed that 2 Timothy 2:2 along with 2 Timothy 2:15 in the life of someone who is born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit leads to spiritual maturity.
The lack of progressive growth, desire to read God’ Word and the lack of conviction in their heart about ongoing unconfessed sin in ones life may indicate that the Holy Spirit is not in residence indicating one is not a child of God. Hebrews tells us this and Paul also told us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.
Unless God is really only committed to conforming “some” of His children into the image of His Son or the Holy Spirit only performs His ministry in some peoples lives.
Even though the congregation is to teach each other as they are gifted and led and we are to personally study to show ourselves approved, ultimately the responsibility for our sanctification and maturity is the specialized work of the Holy Spirit.
But I agree that I should have been clearer that the process is a long one and never ends this side of the eternal state.
I am hoping that you understand that I was not speaking of you, but of professing believers in general.
Blessings in Christ.
mrs. maverick-
Indeed the clergy laity distinction:
Unbiblical Clergy/ Laity distinctions
“The New Testament teaches leadership among the people of God, but not in a way that leads to the “clergy/laity” conclusion. The root words from which we derive the English words “clergy” and “laity” are found in the New Testament, but our usage of “clergy/laity” is far removed from the New Testament concepts.”
“The English word “clergy” is related to the Greek word “cleros”. It means “a lot or inheritance”. For example, in 1 Peter 5:3 the elders are exhorted not to lord it over “the lots” (Greek: ton cleron), which refers to the entire flock of God’s people. Nowhere in the New Testament is any form of “cleros” used to designate a separate class of “ordained” leaders. Instead, it refers to the “inheritance” (Greek: clerou) laid up for all the saints (Col. 1:12; Acts 26:18). The saints as a collective whole are conceived of in the New Testament as God’s “inheritance”. We have utterly perverted and turned upside-down the New Testament teaching by using the term “clergy: to refer to a special elite group of church leaders.”
“This English word is related to the Greek word “laos”, which means “people”. The Greek word “laikos”, which means “laity”, is not found in the New Testament. All in the body of Christ, whether “saints, bishops, or deacons” (Phil. 1:1), are the “people” (“laos”) of God. “People of God” is a title of honor bestowed upon all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 6:16; 1 Pet. 2:9-10).”
“It was not until the third century that “clergy” was employed to designate a limited number of persons who functioned in the Christian assemblies. One of the worst outcomes of the “clergy” doctrine was that it communicated the notion that without the “clergy” present there simply was no church. Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and many other church practices, could not happen unless a “clergyman” was present.”
“Because the New Testament knows nothing of “clergy” the fact that a separate caste of the “ordained” permeated our vocabulary and practice illustrates rather forcefully that we do not yet take the New Testament very seriously. The “clergy” practice is a heresy that must be renounced. It strikes at the heart of the priesthood of all believers that Jesus purchased on the cross. It contradicts the shape Jesus’ kingdom was to take when He said, “You are all brethren”. Since it is a tradition of men, it nullifies the Word of God (Mark 7:13).” (Jon Zens)
It is truly amazing how far from the biblical model spelled out for us in the NT scriptures that the institutional church has fallen. The “clergy” is actually all of the redeemed and regenerated in the body of Christ. Simply put, the “clergy” refers to all true believers! And similarly, the “laity” or “laos” refers to “the people of God.” With the distinctions that have been made for centuries within the professing church, it is shocking to discover that the practice is completely unbiblical and that the terms “clergy” and Laity” are actually synonymous terms!
Questions: What are the implications of the man made clergy/laity distinction as practiced in the church?
@ hutch,
exactly what i’m talking about with this clergy/laity distinction.
and to come t find out, they’re synonymous! cheers. (smile)
however, i will refrain from using the terms because i know that it will be a long time before the attitude of elite/”only a”, “just a”, will disappear.
No offense taken on my part brother just looking for clarification on your statement.
As far as the clergy /laity distinction you have propsed i must say that you open a box of worms that I have not tackled. But I can tell you that the concept that is operated in church today is “off tune.” We have pastors that have chosen to take a kingly postion in the church rather the place of a servant. It has always amazed me how pastors have called themsleves servants of Christ but yet continually looked to be served by others.
This has also lead to the misconception that God only speaks to one person in the church and that person speaks for God. So to question them apologetically then is synonmous with questioning God.
i question all the time, i have an inquiring mind and tend to be bereanish. my attitude is one of, if something is indeed truth- it can stand up under the most minute scrutiny.
I agree….
Lionel, Tyris, Karsten, Angela, Derrick, Hutch, Lawrence, Sowen, Lawrence, Brian, Alan and others,
I first want to say that a lot of what is being said and discussed is challenging to the core of my heart. Lionel, every time you and I have a conversation I’m stretched to the point where I get a headache (in a good way, LOL!!!). Brothers and sisters, I really am praying and mulling over these issues. I’m a little slow, so please bear with me, and do not think that I’m asking these questions to incite a riot or a debate. I sincerely desire to earnestly know. I think there is so much truth to what you guys are saying, that even though I am not completely sold on the organic model, I would implement much of this within my home and even in my neighborhood to supplement what goes on in my local church gathering (yeah I know Lionel, you’re saying “why isn’t your church doing this in the neighborhood already?” I guess I walked into that one, but be patient with me bro’!!!…smile). To be fair, I have done my required reading here and in other places that have the same mode of thought. So, these questions are ones that just kind of flowed right from the heart. I just let my fingers do the typing, and I didn’t add any scripture references (although much of it is scripturally based I would think). I appreciate all of your responses in advance, and I’ll take them all offline, unless I need some further clarification.
1. How would you measure spiritual maturity?
2. How does breaking away from what you call “institutionalism” amongst churchgoers and pastors guard us from being prideful that we somehow “got the revelation” that others didn’t have? How does this prevent us from thinking that we stand alone in insuring we get everything we will ever need from God? Isn’t this along the same lines as what the recent Willow Creek church study defined as people needing to be more of “self feeders” as it pertains to growth? Doesn’t this lead to us being more anti-community than pro-community in the larger scope of things?
3. If the bible commands us to submit ourselves to one another, how are we to know what to submit to if everything everyone says is given the same weight?
4. In this type of setting, what would be all of your definitions of rebuke, reproof, exhortation, admonishment, discipline, etc, as it relates to believers?
5. I completely agree that some pastors have usurped their authority in many congregations, but isn’t it incorrect to make that sweeping generalization of every pastor?
6. I also agree that many church members are yet drinking similac when they should be chewing on porterhouses. But is it fair to say that every person who is involved in the “church system” is immature? And again, how do we measure the “immaturity” of a person that is in the “church system” as opposed to the “maturity” of a person that is not in the church system? Could a person in the “church system” have more spiritual maturity than a person in an “organic” model? And if they did, wouldn’t the reason be the same (ie, prayer, study, humility, the development of the fruit of the Spirit, dependence on the Trinity for spiritual wisdom and understanding)?
7. Most would agree that the reasons for the decay and degradation in the church today is due to what is in men’s hearts. Pride, deceitfulness, wrath, envy, strife, boasting, etc.,. Do these things suddenly go away when we convert from a “church building” ecclesiology to a “relational” ecclesiology? Isn’t there the possibility of cultish behavior being prevalent just as much in a “house church” as there would be in a congregation which meets in a building, has a pulpit, pews, etc.?
8. I keep hearing everyone talk about the priesthood of the believer and how we’ve seen such exponential growth in churches that follow a more organic model. I am excited to hear this and look to prayerfully investigate the parameters of it. But please, somebody tell me how this looks??? How is this measured??? How do you look at someone who is in the “church building” and someone who is in the “organic church” and say that there is an explosion of maturity in the house church person? Are there not any people who understand the real priesthood of the believer yet continues to fellowship in a church that meets in a building? Would you say that they do not understand the real priesthood of the believer because they have chosen to submit to a pastor or elder in a church as opposed to leaving that church altogether?
As I’ve stated earlier, I apologize for my slowness, and I’ve seen much of the biblical explanation of these things. But it would be great if someone could give me a practical, feasible, understandable example or testimony of how this is somehow better or how a biblically centered “building” church is somehow so much more inferior. I may have more questions as time progresses, but this is all that I could think of right now. Grace and peace to all of you….
Solus Christus,
Craig
You have asked questioned that I have ponder and still ponder so do not think you are in the boat by yourself.
2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brothers,be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2 Cor. 10:12
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
I will chime in on point number 1. I would not say that we can measure a person maturation but we can definitely see a noticeabl growth in an area of a person. Paul asserts that as believers we should do that which we can to display that we are who God called us to be. Now to equate that with we display some type of work based faith but to be distinctive in our walk.
As so he deals with the people of Corinth by telling them to stop comparing themselves with people in their particular crew.The true standard for measuring spiritual growth would be Jesus. He set the bar for us to measure or walk. So if we have not measured up to his staure then we have falling short. that brings about the humbling becasue we then ee that we are really no bette than anyone else because we all have falling short in one are or antother.
Craig,
Since you included me in your address (at least, I think you were including me), I feel like I should respond. You have asked some very good and honest questions.
Instead of answering your questions point by point, I would like to make a couple of statements that may help. First, I do not equate “institutional church” with “bad” and “organic church” with “good”. God can and does work mightily in the lives of people in many different forms of church. My concern as a leader in the church is to help the church in building itself up – edifying itself. In other words, whenever we think about what we do as a church, we ask ourselves, “What would be the most edifying to the church and what would allow the church to best edify itself?” The answers to these questions may change from group to group and from culture to culture.
There are many, many mature believers within “institutional churches” and there are immature believers within “organic churches”. While I think that it may be easier to remain immature in “institutional churches”, the structure of the church itself does not change a person’s maturity level. “What is maturity?” I would say that maturity is walking more like Christ, talking more like Christ, serving more like Christ, giving more like Christ, and dieing more like Christ.
It is possible for anyone to begin to think that they have all the answers – both those within “organic churches” and those within “institutional churches”. For any believer, we must recognize that we do not have all of the answers. Instead, we need one another. Thus, even when I disagree with someone, I recognize that God could use that person to teach me and to help me toward maturity. The answer is humility – admitting that we do not have it all together, and that we need one another. Of course, humility cannot be just a state of mind – we must live and act on that humility by giving others the place of significance in our lives.
Whether in “organic churches” or “institutional churches” there is a danger that people will begin to look toward their leaders (pastors / elders) for all of the answers instead of looking toward God. Yes, we should respect and trust our leaders, because they are more mature and they walk more consistently with God. However, as a leader, I can tell you that we cannot tell you how, where, or when God is leading you. However, God, through his Holy Spirit, is perfectly capable and willing to communicate his desires to you. As a leader, I feel that one of my responsibilities is to help others listen to God – not to help people listen to me.
Again, I did not try to answer your questions point by point. But, I hope my questions give you something to think about. If you have more questions after reading this and other responses, feel free to ask them here, or you can email me. You’ll find my email address at my blog <a href=”http://assembling.blogspot.com”The Assembling of the Church.
-Alan
Craig,
The html tag did not work. My blog is called “The Assembling of the Church” and the address is http://assembling.blogspot.com
-Alan
Craig,
My html tag did not work. My blog is “The Assembling of the Church” and the address is assembling.blogspot.com. My email address is in the right sidebar of my blog.
-Alan
Craig,
I just want to say that I am with Alan that there are good things in both and there are or can be bad in both (institutional and organic churches). The issue could also be are we being edified, built up, exhorted etc. in a big box setting. That’s why so many of the bigger churches started cell groups. In order to be more intimate. It is really hard to exercise the gifts in a big mega setting. We are to come together ready to be ministered to and also to minister. Intimacy with the Father and each other are why we assemble. We are to give God all of our worship and one way we do that is by loving one another. That is hard to love all 30,000 people in a mega church. Not saying we can’t it would just be harder when you don’t know everyone. Plus it makes it easier for people to fall through the cracks sort of speaking in a bigger assembly. Their needs may not be getting met since everything is structured. In a smaller group chances are you can better minister to others. At least that’s what I am realizing.
Love you all, Steven
brethren, i submit to you that i only see one Church and that is the body of Christ worldwide. i don’t get this institutional/organic Church, unless you are referring to how we gather amongst ourselves.
craige, to answer a few of your qs. 1. we measure spiritual maturity by our continuing dependence on Jesus Christ and obeying His Word. as far as seeing growth in each other- we have to be intimate with that person and know them personally. this can only be accomplished by true fellowship. i’m intimate with my husband and can see where he’s grown in his walk with the Lord and where he hasn’t and he can see these same evidences in my life (or lack thereof). i’m also intimate with my best friend ivonne (a Christian) and we are well acquainted with each other enough to be frank, transparent, and see how our lives are measured up to God’s Word. i can’t see how we can know them who labor among us can be accomplished when we don’t even know half the people in our gatherings.
2. as far as pride goes, in or out of the assembly we have to guard against this. i never advocated standing alone for it’s impossible for a limb to function on it’s own apart from the body. if my disdain for the Church owning buildings somehow alludes to individualism, this is not my intent. Lord knows i couldn’t make it without the family of God!
3. i don’t know what u mean by carries the same weight.
4.the Scriptures are our authority and by them we are rebuked, exhorted, admonished etc. etc. we can all hold one another to accountability when need be. i was once told that only elders could correct elders, of course i don’t hold to this because it’s not taught that way in Scripture.
5.yes, i agree that it is wrong to make sweeping generalizations against pastors abusing their authority just because some do. btw, i’m not sure what you mean by a pastor’s authority because as far as i’m concerned- no other man in the Lord has authority over me besides my husband. and authority to do what?
6. i agree that the same standard applies in both situations. i don’t try to judge someone’s walk by my own. btw, i dont try to judge someone’s walk by my own- that would be disastrous. 2 Cor. 10:12
7. again i agree with you brother that the same behavior exhibited in a “church building” can very well be present when gathering in someone’s home. however, in the home the overhead is much cheaper! LOL. now praytell, how do we stop the cultish behavior that’s going on right now?
8. it’s true i don’t support financially maintaining a building and again spiritual growth is not contingent upon locality. all of the same problems (including spiritual abuse) can occur anywhere. the difference i see is in the attitude that people have toward their structures. as sojourners on our way to our real home with Christ, i don’t know why the Church is busy becoming centralized. i won’t bore you further with my rant against buildings because i’ve already said that as long as you’re free in your conscience to fellowship there, then do so. please don’t get me wrong- i’m not saying i wouldn’t go to a meeting with the Church in that type of setting, but i will not give any money towards it upkeep, or to pay anyone’s salary. my heart is free in this matter. if i can get off of lionel’s blog, i’ll be addressing this topic in my own way on mine. lol
Hey R4C,
Where did I mention Institutional or Organic? I don’t remember using those terms at all. But maybe I did. Next I meet at
http://www.lifelinebible.org which is a plant of
http://www.dentonbible.org
I have for roughly 3 to 4 years. I am under a Senior Pastor (Pastor Clark). We meet in a building, we have a worship leader and a band sort of. However there are a few things that may make us different.
1. We are big on fellowship and interaction. In the past we would do something called FIT (Families Interacting Together) in which we would meet at round tables (we don’t have pews we have circular tables) and for the first 35-40 minutes we discuss the passage that the teacher will exposit. This gets everyone interacting with the text and you know exaclty what is being taught so you have a week to prepare for it.
2. We just finished 12 weeks of Bible Study Methods. In turn every single member will be held acountable to finish at least 4 charts through the book of John (we just finished Ephesians that is why you see all of my work on Ephesians). We will give pointers on how to divide the charts but no one is required to do it our way.
3. We eat every Sunday. Every Sunday. There is food and you will see people loving on each other, interacting and discussing the scriptures. This again happens every week.
4. Finally our Senior Pastor is huge on every member ministry. He may be a bit more hands on but that could be because we are going through a transistion.
5. Not to mention our previous pastor (Dhati who is going to plant in Atlanta) had us set up pretty good. We would do a sort of Sunday School class where it was plenty of interaction and many had opportunities to edify and teach. Not to mention we would shut down one Sunday a month (every first Sunday) and do outreach. Everything from raking leaves, helping build fences, taking surveys to see how we could reach the needs of the community and other things. We would do this monthly.
So I am not against people who meet in buildings. I am against buildings that make the people meet. Next I will answer your questions.
1. I concur with what Alan said. When Christians don’t need programs and classrooms to obey the imperatives of the one anothers.
2. How does staying in the “institutional” church prevent us from being prideful in our denominational structures. Where my church is better than your church and my preacher is better than your preacher? Just look at blogs and tell me how the opposite is working? Hopefully those who break away or decide to stay in the “traditional” structure would be humble as the Holy Spirit would call them to be. Don’t forget the book of Ephesians are full of one anothers and that is “local Church” to “local Church” it is believer to believer.
3. The Bible and the Spirit. If it ain’t biblical then it needs to be corrected. Paul had no problem trusting the Spirit to do what He promised to do through the words of Jesus in John 14-16.
4. The definitions wouldn’t change. Why do you believe otherwise? That can be done at dinner, in a church, at someone’s home but it is rarely done at church (unless the pastor is preaching a sermon and it happens to cover some spicific issue). That is like pouring a cup of water from the Empire State Building and everyone below has cups.
5. I never said every pastor. Can you show me that? Alan is a pastor I never said that about him. So is Kieth and Brian.
6. I never said every person in a church system was immature. Can you show me that one also. I am in a church setting and so is everyone in my local church.
7. What decay? When was Western Christianity vibrant and healthy? When they had Slaves? Jim Crow? When they chased off the Indians? I never knew they were healthy! But no those aren’t the issues. Paul writes about those issues 2000 years ago. Just check Galatians, and 1 and 2 Corinthians.
8. Yep I am one at least. So I know one. It looks like the body funcitioning as a body. Not the Pastor functioning as the body. If you reread the post, I think I make that point. Here is an excerpt:
“What does the verse above look like? It either is a “a church full of ministers” or “a minister full of the church”. I think that is pretty clear. But let me ask which one do we see today (in upward of 90%) of our assemblies? I ask because of this. When someone is sick, in physical need, when their marriage is on the rocks, someone is in pain due to the loss of a loved one, someone is struggling with depression, someone has sinned and needs to be rebuked and restored, when someone is struggling with a tough doctrine, or when someone just needs to talk, who usually takes care of this? Who is usually at the hospital or someone’s home visiting the sick? Who is usually counseling a young couple who’s marriage is unraveling? Who does the teaching, who does the exhortation, who does the admonishing, who sings the songs, who makes the decisions, who drives the vision?”
Hope this helps. I think some of your comments may be directed at others. But tell me Craig. What have you seen with your own eyes and what is being practiced? Have you experienced all member churches or churches top heavy? How often have you seen the church funtion like 1 Corinthians 14 or how often have you seen the body function simultanesously like in 1 Corinthians 12 or Ephesians 4? These are real questions brother.
9.
Craig-
You are by no means slow-you are probably way ahead of me on these issues. I for one along with my wife are in a holding pattern until we resolve in our hearts the very issues you raise.
You asked:
1. How would you measure spiritual maturity?
This is an issue that is very close to my heart and one that I have wrestled with for a long time.
I do not presume to know all the answers and there are obviously others here that are gifted greater than I who can also give us excellent input, but here is my two cents worth:
I have been blessed by the ministry of a number of what would be considered great expositors. We are all gifted differently and to different degrees in certain areas. No gift is superior to another and all gifts are vital to the edification of the body (congregation). I have a great love for and zeal for studying God’s Word and have had this from day one of becoming a Christian. It was natural that I gravitated towards the “bible church” movement (obviously the implication being that other churches are not “bible churches”). Grin.
My observations are that some churches are heavy on doctrine and weak on loving others and outreach, while others are weak on doctrine and strong on loving others and outreach.
So, while God’s Word gives us all that we need for life and godliness and is vital to our hearing from God and knowing His will, Bible knowledge in and of itself is not a good measure of maturity.
When I see young “preachers” just out of Bible College or even more impressively out of seminary, who are given places of authority, I always chuckle for a number of reasons.
1) They remind me of me when I used to know everything.
2) This may sound high minded but wait until my final point before judging this statement-the idea that a young gun is going to be able to teach me or anyone else who has been walking with God and studying His Word for many years is very unlikely.
I made the point that bible knowledge although being very important is not a good gauge of maturity in Christ.
Why, because many people including me can know a lot of bible knowledge and still not submit to the Spirit and walk accordingly.
In the book of Proverbs there is a theme that runs throughout: the fool/the wise, knowledge/ignorance, folly/wisdom.
The idea is that just gaining storehouses of untested and unapplied knowledge is just theory and usually results in one becoming proud and arrogant.
Trust me I know-I am the champion about learning things the hard way! My life would be easier if I could just accept theory, but I usually have to learn by experience!
Wisdom is explained as being knowledge skillfully put into practice.
So back to the bible knowledge issue: We know that as believers we should be becoming more and more self-feeders on God’s Word, yet we still need to be discipled and to disciple others. We really can get to the point with our bible knowledge where it is unlikely that even great expositors are going to be able to teach us anything “new”-(since there is nothing new under the sun), what can older and more mature brothers in Christ teach me that the young educated preacher boy cannot?
A life that is exemplified by what Paul calls the fruit of the Spirit:
Love
Joy
Patience
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self-Control
This condition is arrived at according to Paul by walking in the Spirit.
So a man or a woman whose life is exemplified by these characteristics have learned to die to themselves and to take up their cross and follow Christ.
There lives model for us knowledge of God’s Word put into action by the power and ministry of the Holy Spirit.
On the other hand all of us have known and have been at times in our lives people who have great bible knowledge yet don’t seem especially loving, or joyfully (some are downright grouchy!), or not amazingly patient, or more standoffish and indifferent than kind, or more like a rascal than good, or not very faithful, or anything but gentle and some even have no self control.
But we all have met that rare individual that seemed to really be having the very life of Christ living through them (I did not make that up-Paul said it) and we know that is what a maturing Christian looks like.
We know they have spent time with God. Those people have something to teach me.
It’s all about growing in our love for God and being empowered by Him to love others and to do the work of the ministry.
I think this is part of the answer.
In Christ,
Mike
Ready4change are you really ready for a change lol!
Bro. R4C,
I’ve admired you since I read the first thing you wrote. I always tend to see your questions as being asked sincerely so no worries. Here we go:
1. I’m sorry I have to answer your question. Who’s spiritual maturity am I measuring? And for what purpose would I be doing so? I’m not sure where this question is relative.
2. The only thing that guards us from pride is the chastening of the Holy Spirit and beholding our Lord Jesus Christ who “though being in the form of God…”. And rather standing alone or in a crowd of thousands “we” do not insure we receive anything from God let alone everything we need. Submission to God and a faithful committment by all to the edification of all is how He has designed to grant us all things. That’s not to say that we can’t get some things in the solo lane. Some of the most clarity in my studies, and I’m sure yours and others, has come alone. There are many text in the bible that speak of growth and maturity happening both alone and in groups. The answer is not “either/or” but “both/and”. Willow Creek’s issue was believing that surveying was the way to do fellowship in the first place. That’s a whole other topic. And no, I don’t believe that it promotes anti-community. I actually believe it sets us free to be more communal.
3. This question is a little weird. I don’t think anyone was suggesting this at all so I’m not sure how to answer except to say that the bible is still the final authority on any matters related to the fellowship.
4. Here again, I’m not sure how the definition changes because of the setting one is in. Whether or not were in an assembly of 2, 20, 200, 2000, 20000, 2000000, etc. the definitions stay the same. All of these can be done with the scriptures by all in the assembly. No clergy/laity distinctions my friend.
5. Every pastor who sees himself as “above” or seperate from the rest of the body, has indeed usurped Christ’ authority. Ask a pastor this question, “What part of the body are you?”. Don’t be surprised when he says “I’m the head.” No it’s not an unfair generalization. Ask even the most humble appearing pastor this question and you’ll see.
6. I can’t answer this question as I’ve made no such “all” statements concerning anyone in the “church systems”. Yes it is possible for someone to be more mature in the church system than in the home fellowship. But I’m not sure that it matters nor that this persons “maturity” is not going to waste. In the COGIC, no matter what “maturity” level you have, your title better be more than Bro./Sis. so-and-so if you want to use your gift as God is leading you and not them.
7. I don’t think anyone is confining the issue of a man’s heart to what building or setting he may be in. Re-read my response to #2. However, R4C you have to admit that hypothetical situations should never dictate doing a thing the proper way. Police officers carry their guns in a holster that points the barrel of the gun down. Now they could shoot themselves in the foot. And many actually do. But that’s no reason to point the holster upwards. The effects of a mistake in that situation would be much worse.
8. Any church that has a clergy/laity distinction, either explicit or implicit, is rejecting the priesthood of all believers. We also have to stop seeing titles and start recognizing gifts. Someone may consider me a pastor, even their pastor. But I’m just Bro. Lawrence D. to any and all. And if that’s too much you can drop the Bro.!
One final note, we must wonder and even question whether or not a “biblically-centered building church” is not an oxymoron in itself. I think that’s the question that many are attempting to raise and answer here. I’d love to converse with you on the phone. Hit me at lawrencedacus@aol.com if you’re interested in exchanging numbers.
Firstly, thanks to everyone for their responses. As I expected, all of you have responded in a timely manner and in a loving spirit. You are all in my opinion a beautiful representation of what Christ means for the church to be. Now, forgive me for my hastiness on what I initially typed. I looked back over my post and saw how some of it could be misleading. Perhaps I should have edited it more so that it would be better understood. As much as I love to write and speak, I still sometimes have trouble expressing some things with clarity. Charge it to my head and not my heart. I am getting a little older (although I suspect that I am much younger than Derrick and Angela—Just joking guys!!! LOL!!!). So with that said, I feel the need to perhaps clarify my intent. To do this, I need to respond to you all individually.
Lionel,
I apologize bro if you took this personally. It wasn’t meant as a personal attack or anything. It’s just that I’ve been following the recent entries and interactions on the blog, and it did seem as though through your writings (and our conversation) that you may have been leaning to something of an organic church model. Please excuse my ignorance, for I sometimes use the terms “house/home” church and “organic” interchangeably. I don’t have a great knowledge of the difference (if there is one), nor do I understand totally how they function. If I have misjudged this on your part, I stand corrected. You had issues with questions 5, 6 and 7, so maybe I should address those.
5. Again, I wasn’t directing this at you in particular, just a general statement to whoever may feel that way. It’s not something I specifically heard you say, but remember the post wasn’t addressed to you specifically. Again, not a need to take it personally, it’s just that the people I addressed all seem to have similar understandings of ecclesiology, hence the question. In the first sentence of my post, I said “…a lot of what’s being said and discussed…”, so I was just referring to the general nature of the interactions. I think you know me well enough to understand that if I was referring to something you specifically said, I would point out that specific thing. So put away the shotgun partner, I come in peace!!! (LOL!!!)
6. (See 5 above)
7. I wouldn’t put the location label “Western” on Christianity. Is there a certain way we practice and live as Christians in the West? Yes. But I think much of that would not be categorized as Christianity in the first place. We are on the same page in regards to the mockery that has been made in the name of religion and “Christianity” here in our land. I was directing this more to the problem with the church at large. As much as we read about the power, fellowship, fervency and testimony of the first century church, we read it looking back and I’m sure there were issues there as well (Paul points this out in many of his epistles). What I’m saying is, anytime there have been weaknesses, it has been a result of the same defects. I understand what you mean though, and perhaps I should have made it clear that these are the reasons that apply to all of Christianity.
I know that you fellowship at Lifeline. In fact I’ve referred a friend of mine who lives in Fort Worth to you and the ministry there (though he says Denton is about 45 minutes away from him). There wasn’t really a need to be explanatory regarding that, but what a great model it seems you guys have there. I can see that maybe you felt you needed to mention it because you thought the post was directed at you specifically. We’re on the same team bro’, believe me. I have to emphasize that this post was a plea for understanding, not an attack or a defense. Maybe I’ll hit you up this weekend so that you can fuss me out by phone…(smile…Love ya brah!!!!)
Angela,
You had issues with questions 3 and 5.
3. I really mean this in a context of a gathering. For example, even if you only have 5 people, you may have 5 different opinions on a variety of different things. In the setting of a small gathering where scripture is being explored, if every person feels strongly that what their interpretation is correct, who is there to mediate and settle things? I’m not talking about people who are saying things contrary to scripture, but I’m speaking of issues that they may feel passionately about. I know the response would probably be that this is where the more mature brothers and sisters would step in and restore some measure of order. So this is attempted and someone says “who are you to correct, rebuke or reprove me? I have just as much of the spirit as you do. I’m just as mature and I feel that what I say has just as much worth. And who says you’re more mature anyway?” That’s very hypothetical, and I don’t mean any harm by it, but I’m just giving you somewhat of an illustration of what I mean. So when I say “carries weight”, I don’t mean in a sense of being more important, but rather in a sense of it being the wisest thing to do at the time. This may not be helpful, but I hope that it at least makes it a little less fuzzy in your mind.
5. Maybe instead of “authority” I should have used another word. I agree with you that the only authority is Christ’s. Perhaps leadership is a better word, and I would say a person who has given themselves in service to another. You may fuss me out as well if you like!!!…(smile)
Alan,
Yes you are the one I was referring to. Yes I have been to your blog and will continue to read the challenging info you provide, and yes your response was as thorough as I expected. Thank you so much!
Mike (Hutch),
What can I say? Your gifting is apparent and your heart on this issue is contagious, even through typed letters…You have expertly given the very definition I was looking for…I’ve read many of your responses, and your biblical wisdom on these issues is priceless…I look forward to future interaction…Blessings to you…
Sowen,
I really appreciate the comments. Thank you for your insightful thoughts on the issue.
Derrick,
ALWAYS READY SIR!!!! (LOL!!!)
Last, but certainly not least:
Lawrence,
I bet you don’t admire me as much as I admire you!!!…Seems like only yesterday we “cybermet” at pp.org. Your response cleared up much for me, and I’m grateful for your thoughtful consideration. I think you only had an issue with question 3, so see my response to Angela above (although this still may not be adequate enough). I would be honored to converse with you via email and telephone. I’ll hit you up tomorrow. I’m also excited to know that a little bit more of the world will get to experience a little bit more of your God-given brilliance through the grand opening of “Agonizingly Honest Christianity”. Your sincerity and probity are exhilarating…
I think this covers everyone, and thanks again for all of your responses. I will continue to study and bathe these issues in prayer and scriptural introspection.
Solus Christus,
Craig
Craig,
The last time I took something personal, I sent the goons out to ensure that it wouldn’t happen again!That person is still walking with a limp. LOL.
Hey, I was born with my limp! Whachu talkin’ bout Willis?!
My brother,
Thank you for the reminders in your other postings and this one to preach the Word and equip the saints. I struggle worrying about how big our church should get, how we’ll make budget and all sorts of CEO crap. I need to be reminded that Jesus is King over our church and I’m His beloved child serving Him out of gratitude.
Many blessings
hi lionel,
no comment- just trying to correct my url. thanx
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