A Better Covenant

Posted in Current Issues, Studying the Scriptures, Theology Applied | Tagged Grace, Hell | 37 Comments

37 Responses

1. on August 18, 2008 at 12:10 pm | Reply Karsten Miller

   Good post. How do you answer the claims of some that the Lake of Fire is not an eternal place of conscious torment? There are some that believe that you’ll die, and never be consciously aware of anything if you are in the Lake of fire. They’ll claim the flame is eternal but not the soul in hell based on the scripture of Matthew 10:28? I am asking because I have been searching how to answer correctly such a claim. God bless,

   Karsten

   
   
2. on August 18, 2008 at 1:17 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

   Hey KM,

   Walk them through a word study on “eternal” which is the greek word “aiōnios”.

   Then ask them why Jesus consisently says “there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The flip side of that is that they have to believe the same thing about heaven. In Matthew 25 Jesus both the righteous and the wicked will be raised (the raising is the same phyiscal/spiritual body that Jesus walked in after His resurrection). In verse 46 Jesus says some will be raised to “everlasting punishment” others to “everlasting life”. If we believe that somehow the senses will be deadened not to experience the fullness of God’s wrath in hell we must also believe that the senses will be deadened in heaven. If we say that we begin to become gnotstics and this is what Paul is arguing against in 1 Corinthians 15. No the body isn’t like the body we have now. It is an eternal body and we will be able to enjoy all of the pleasures of the New Heaven and New Earth and those who rebel against God will get to experience all of their senses in the Eternal Fire “where the worm never dies”.

   That would be a start. But this arguement is mostly with those who have attempted to redefine God and it is a theological heresy.

   
   
3. on August 18, 2008 at 4:19 pm | Reply Karsten Miller

   Thank you Lionel

   
   
4. on August 20, 2008 at 3:12 am | Reply Jon Paden

   Lionel,
   Please excuse this duplicate posting, but it seemed fitting to post it here in this discussion about aionios and the lake of fire. I’m still waiting for a rebuttal to my current understanding on this subject. Thanks

   A few weeks ago I posted some comments on Melvin Jones pulpit-pimps site about christian universalism. I’m not sure how to contact the blogger blackandreformed, so I’m posting my message here. I responded to your (BlackandReformed, Gary V, Kyle, Melvin) about scriptures that deal with everlasting (aionios) life and everlasting destruction and the scriptures that attribute God as the everlasting (aionios) God. However, Melvin refused to post it for reasons that I don’t quite understand. The reason for this post is to respond to your questions and ask that you explain to me where I am in error with my understanding with aion/aionios and the belief that Jesus is indeed the savior of the whole world and is reconciling the all mankind to God. I was under similar beliefs as you but upon further study of the subjects of the lake of fire (second death) Hell, the resurections and judment, I have come to a different understanding. I’ve reached out to the pulpit pimps site because I thought it was a sight of sincere Christians helping other sincere Christians avoid error in our faith. Please respond if you are interesting in helping a fellow brother in Christ avoid error if there is error in my current poistion.

   These are two of the three post that I sent to Melvin’s site that he refused to post (it’s somewhat lengthy but I think it thorougly explain my current understanding on the subject):

   As I’ve stated before, we know God’s Word does not contradict itself. However, there are what seems to be contradictions with various translations of His Word. Therefore, whenever scripture seems to not agree with other scriptures or doesn’t seem to not make much logical sense, we must delve deeper into the study of the Word. One way this is done is by referring back to the original languages to hopefully bring about greater understanding on any given passage(s) of scripture. Now let’s try to apply this approach in our study of the words translated everlasting, eternal, forever and ever.
   Some translators have used the English words eternity, eternal, everlasting, forever, forever and ever, and forever more for the Greek words aion and aionios. The word aion means age which is a time span having both a beginning and an end. This Greek word aion parallels the English word eon which means the same thing. The word aion in its adjective form is aionios (in English it is eonian for the purpose of translation). As a matter of fact, many of the same Bible translators have indeed rendered the Greek word aion into “age” or “world” in several other passages of scripture.
   Eph 3:9 – a secret concealed from the aions (past)
   Heb 11:3 – the preparation of the aions (past)
   Gal 1:4 – the present wicked aion (present)
   Matt 28:20 – the conclusion of the current aion (present)
   Luke 18:30 – the coming aion (future)
   Eph 2:7 – the oncoming aions (future)
   Titus 1:2 – In hope of aionios-life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the time of the ages (pro chronos aionios)
   Now let’s define the words eternal, everlasting, and forever.
   eternal – perpetual, endless, everlasting, continual, ceaseless, timeless, infinite, unending, immortal, deathless, constant
   everlasting – unending, ageless, perpetual, continual
   forever – always, eternally
   Now let’s define the words age and eon.
   age – pertaining to time, duration, term, space, span, season, era, eon, moment, while, interim, interval
   eon – age, time
   What can logically be concluded? The words that denote time have been translated (by some) to indicate infinity. This has obviously led many to declare that God intends to torment man infinitely, when in fact His judgments bear fruit unto the ages.
   What does aionios mean?
   One helpful way to find out what a word means is to look at its parts. For example, consider this similarity: the English name Christian was first used by non-Christians to describe Jesus Christ’s early followers. The term means “of Christ” or “pertaining to Christ.”
   The word aionios is formed from two parts: aion (age) and the suffix- ios (pertaining to). Thus, aionios means pertaining to aion or pertaining to ages.
   For the English form of aion it is again eon and the suffix used – ian (eonian).
   Now when considering the word eonian we can hopefully bring to light what is means by looking at some more examples with the use of the suffix “ian”
   ian (pertaining to)
   Christ (Christ – ian)
   Armenia (Armen – ian)
   Orwell (Orwell – ian)
   History (Histor – ian)
   Italy (Itlal – ian)
   Eon (Eon – ian)
   The length of the aion depends on the subject to which it attached. It is sometimes translated “world”, with “world” representing a period or a series of periods of time (Matt 12:32; 13:40-49; I Cor 1:20; Eph 1:21) Similarly the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world (I Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3).
   The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity, It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such expressions as this age, or the age to come. Therefore, aion (eon) and aionios (eonian) in themselves, cannot denote the sense of endlessness or everlasting.
   Now let’s deal with some of the seemingly contradicting passages of scripture.
   The reason that aionios was translated “everlasting” is largely due to a false assumption. Your reasoning is that because this adjective is applied to life, God, and punishment, the word means “everlasting” on that basis alone. If I told you that three large objects are red, does that mean we should believe that the word “red” means “large?” Of course not. Likewise, just because aionios is applied to God does not mean “aionios” automatically means “everlasting.” God is many things, and immortal is one of them. God is holy, righteous, and good. Guess what? The word aionios doesn’t mean any of those things either. Here are some of the scriptures you’ve used to support your assumption:
   John 3:16
   For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal (aionios) life.

   Matthew 18:8
   And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionios) fire.

   Romans 16:26
   And by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionios) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith.”
   You say: since God is “aionios” and the life promised to Christians is “aionios,” doesn’t that mean that “aionios punishment” is infinite? If we say punishment for those who do not obey the Gospel is “related to the ages” rather than everlasting, doesn’t that limit the aionios God and aionios-life to being temporary themselves? Here lies the false assumption that led to false doctrine. If one man says that aionios means everlasting and another says it means “temporary,” they would both be wrong. It does not mean either “infinite” or “temporary.” Instead, “aionios” means “PERTAINING to the aions/ages.” The difference is huge:
   2 Peter 3:8
   Do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
   A day is like a thousand years to God, as a thousand years is like only a day. God does not age, nor does he end. It is difficult to imagine because we are human. We are rooted in time and are subjected to its effects and experiences. Since that is all we know, Peter expresses God’s ultimate transcendence in terms we can understand.

   How powerful He is, that time does not limit God, nor does He experience time the same way we do. This is very important to remember, for the following reason.

   If “aionios” means “eternal” just like God – does “aionios judgment” transcend time, just like God? Would “aionios punishment” also be like a thousand years, but like only a day? That would be pretty good news for people being judged. Of course, the Religious Institution would not have you believe that. But, if their established rule is that “aionios” is “eternal” because God is “aionios,” shouldn’t we at least apply their reasoning consistently?

   Look at it in reverse: if we teach that “aionios” means “eternal,” and that “aionios punishment” lasts for an infinite span of time, they are limiting God! By placing Him in the same time-based framework as they do judgment, they limit His transcendence of time. Judgment, transcending time as eternal, if it was a thousand years, would only be like a single day. It is hypocrisy to insist that non-Christians will experience judgment for long expanses of linear time, only to reverse course and claim that God is NOT likewise bound by time, when they are both aionios!

   GOD: THE ROCK OF AGES
   As it is, “aionios” does not mean “eternal” at all, as all honest scholarship demands. Let us consider a more sensible understanding. Let’s recap the facts:
   - Aion means “age” which is a unit of time
   - The word aionios is aion + ios which means, as demonstrated before, “pertaining to aion”
   - God is “aionios.”
   Think about these facts for a moment. Why should anyone assume that such facts would limit God? Aionios does not mean everlasting or temporary. If you will recall, it simply means pertaining to aion – or more commonly relating to the ages. It indicates a relationship between God and the ages, not God’s limitation by them. Do you see the difference? God will never die, or end just because ages do, but doesn’t God relate to what he creates, even if He is not limited to what he creates? Is this so difficult to understand? If God did not relate to the ages, how could we ever know Him?

   He created the aions/ages to reveal his plan to the Israelites through their prophets of ages past (Hebrews 1:1-2). He is God of what He creates. God is big, even bigger than the universe, but is He limited to being big? Is not God also smaller than the tiniest atomic particle, able to see all things?

   Here is a scriptural example of how God pertains to – without being limited to – what he creates: in Genesis 24:4-3, we read that God is the “God of heaven and the God of the earth.” Now, the earth is visible, natural and will pass away (Matt. 24:35). Is God visible? No, He is invisible. Is God natural? No, He is Spirit. Will God pass away? No, He will not pass away. Yet, he is the God of the earth, nevertheless. Likewise, He is the God of the ages.
   1 Titus 1:17
   Now unto the King eternal (aion), immortal (aphthartos), invisible (aoratos), the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever (aion eis aion). Amen.
   Above, we see Paul attributing three distinct characteristics to the King. He is:
   1) of the age/aion
   2) immortal
   3) invisible
   Here is another instance where aion is translated eternal. And we see aion eis aion (meaning – age unto age) translated as forever and ever. By the way, does forever actually need another “ever” attached to make it infinite? Why not “forever and ever …. and ever?” Does three do the trick? How about four? How many “evers” will do?

   Acknowledging that aion means age – and aion eis aion means age unto age – does not limit God, not according to the verse above. He is the God of the aion/age, AND He is immortal, AND He is invisible. AND, unto Him be honor and glory from “age unto age.” Amen.

   Even the old-time Christian hymn says, our God is the “Rock of Ages.” He is, therefore, the “aionios Rock.” He endures through all generations – and He is with us age unto age – straight through to His plan’s ultimate fulfillment when time has reached a fulfillment (we will get to that later). When Christians sing that God is the Rock “of ages,” do they mean to say that He is limited to those ages? Of course not. They mean that His glory and majesty endures throughout the ages He created, until surely all knees bow to Christ and all tongues confess that he is their Lord (Phil 2:10-11).
   Is aionios-life (the life of the ages) the same as immortality or everlasting life?
   immortal – everlasting, deathless, imperishable, incorruptible
   “Aionios-life” is not immortality at all, and the Bible proves it! It was misunderstood by translators to be “everlasting life.” But, the Bible provides very specific and explicit definitions for aionios-life and NOT ONE definition approaches the concept of being physically alive.

   Because Christians were always told that aionios-life is immortality after death (and because the Bible’s original translators made the same mistake), they also believe that aionios-judgment is everlasting torment. As a result, they visit this failed teaching upon the whole world, even while in their deepest hearts they wish they were wrong. They wish billions were not doomed to infinite torture at the hand of the very God who tried his best to save them.

   Let the scripture speak for itself:
   2 Timothy 1:8-11
   Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the time of the ages, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light through the gospel.
   Did you think I was suggesting that because aionios-life is not the same as immortality, that immortality will not come through the gospel? Far from it. You have it here without question: immortality is indeed “brought to light” through the Gospel, and guess what, immortals never die! However, this is only a part of the Gospel. The full Gospel promise includes much more than that.

   Notice the distinction drawn in Paul’s words above between life and immortality. See how immortality is not the only thing illuminated through the Gospel that Paul preached, but life as well. In fact , it looks like immortality is actually added to life. Is this distinction a casual redundancy, or could it be that there is something more to “life” than simply being in existence?
   Consider this scriptures:
   1 Timothy 5:6
   The widow who lives for pleasure is dead although she is still alive.

   Don’t overlook that, because, Paul also taught a solution to this problem given by God’s grace:

   Titus 2:11-12
   For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present age (Greek – nun aion)

   As the scripture says, in this present age (nun aion), God is providing deliverance from “ungodliness and worldly lusts.” If such death presently reigning in these ages, doesn’t it make sense that the solution to that problem is the LIFE of the ages?
   Consider these scriptures:

   1 John 3:14-17
   We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer
   has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him?

   According to John, where does aionios-life abide? It dwells within you. Doesn’t it make sense? If someone hates his brother in his heart how could he have LIFE within him? Obviously he couldn’t. With that in mind, here is Jesus Christ’s explicit definition of “aionios-life” in His own words:

   John 17:3
   And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.
   Here, God has given you the true definition of aionios-life, directly from His Son’s voice. Does someone who hates his brother really know God, and does he have this knowledge within him? No. He remains in death. Contrary to these truths, according to your traditions, aionios-life is something we must secure now to obtain after death. Really? Then, do you admit that you do not have aionios-life within you now? Are you waiting until the afterlife to receive aionios-life within you?

   You confuse immortality with the life-of-the-ages. Just read the Scripture and believe it for yourselves.
   Consider these scriptures:

   1 John 5:20
   And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.
   Here we have yet another Biblical “this is” statement with regard to aionios-life. Do you see the simplicity in the truth? THIS IS aionios-life: that WE MAY KNOW HIM today (that is true) that we are in IN CHRIST today (that is true) – because the Son of God is come. Do you see anything in that definition about being physically alive everlasting? Of course not, because Paul already carefully made the distinction between life and immortality.

   He says that both have come to light through the Gospel. Immortality will be added to the life-of-the-ages, after our physical deaths. It is at that point, Paul says, “this mortal must put on immortality.” (1 Cor 15:53)

   Here is something to consider carefully: if immortality and aionios-life were identical (like many assume) did Paul not have “aionios-life” during his lifetime as a mortal? Did Paul not have knowledge of God before his mortal death? Or did he indeed have aionios-life within him before he could “put on immortality?” Of course he did! This is because Paul received aionios-life in his “present ages” BEFORE receiving immortality after his death. One comes after the other.

   This is because “aionios-life” is the Spirit of Jesus Christ living in us now in our ages too! This is exactly why Apostle John said, “anyone who hates his brother has not yet passed from death to life,” though he lives and breathes right now. Remember, John says that no murderer has “aionios-life within him.” In contrast, anyone who loves his brother has indeed “passed from death into life,” because the love of God is within him.

   Didn’t Jesus Christ call himself “the way, the truth, and the life?” (John 14:6)
   Romans 6:23
   For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is aionios-life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
   aionios-life is “life” because: It is the Spirit of Jesus Christ our Lord within man.
   aionios-life is “aionios” because: this promise has fulfillment in these present ages/aions, that we may know the one true God, giving us life from the wages of sin. Aionios-life is freedom from subjection to sin today, not after death.

   This was in God’s plan, who promised this “life of the ages” before “the time of the ages” to live within us during the very ages of our lives, to resurrect us from death in sin. Jesus himself reiterates this promise before his death and resurrection, before the age of Pentecost to come, the Spirit within man:
   Mark 10:29-30
   And Jesus answered and said, “Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s, But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions, and, in the world (aion) to come, aionios-life.”
   Take a look at how the translators swapped “world” for “aion” into in the above verse. However, they were left with an interesting dilemma. They translated aion as world, but they obviously could not stay consistent and translate “aionios” as “worldly.” Worldly life? So, they got inventive. They stayed with “world,” but stretched aionios into “eternal.” After all, they had a preconceived doctrine to adhere to.

   Let’s stay consistent: Jesus spoke of the coming age, in which a promised Life of the ages would be given. As He spoke these things, He knew that His imminent Resurrection would usher in the latter ages, as His Spirit would be poured into human beings, starting with the day of Pentecost.

   As the Apostle John affirms:
   1 John 5:11-12
   And this is the testimony: God has given us aionios-life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
   This Life in the Spirit, concerns the aions/ages of our lives – which is exactly what makes it
   aion-ios. The “age to come” Jesus spoke about began at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), when the Holy Spirit first entered into the heart of men, and that age continues now, and continues onward. It is this “life of the ages” to which immortality is added to the saints. However, there will be an end or consummation of the ages-fullness of times (Eph 1:9-10; Rev 21)

   Consider the Prodigal Son, who left his place with his father to seek fulfillment in pleasure. The wages of SIN is DEATH, because sin produces destruction in our lives, causing man to live in a perished state, away from the Lord seeking fulfillment in self. According to the Word of God, what was the Prodigal reaping during his experience, destruction or life? Obviously, he was reaping death and destruction in his sin. But the Spirit has come that we may not reap death in sin, but have life now. Look at the ages. Are they still ticking away? If so – and you have the love of God in you – you have aionios-life.

   Jesus Christ sits on the throne of His temple, which is within his followers. Paul said “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” (1 Cor 3:16) According to the Bible, that’s life.

   What a precious gift we have been given, to have the Spirit of God within us, even while living here in the flesh, that He gives us power over our sin, the ability to understand the things of Spirit, the gifts, and communion with God to know His heart and be united with His purpose.

   Why must we believe in Jesus Christ to receive life? It is not an arbitrary command when you realize the scriptural truth about life.

   God did not put his Son on the cross to die for the world, only to attach a self-defeating belief clause sentencing billions to infinite suffering. If we understand that aionios-life is Jesus Christ within his followers right now, and that “this is life aionios: to know the one true God,” it makes perfect practical sense!

   How can one know someone else if not believing He exists? How would that be possible? It is by believing in Christ that you come know him, thereby receiving aionios-life away from sin in a daily walk. It is astounding that when some people hear that God, through Jesus, will bring the world into repentance and salvation, they say “why bother preaching the Gospel if everyone will be saved?” Do they have something against spreading good news? Given what the Bible says about being perished and receiving life, how could they keep the gift of God’s Spirit to themselves by NOT spreading the good news?
   Melvin,
   The good news is Jesus is the savior of the world.
   You said:
   “I would disagree. Jesus Himself said He came to save those whom the Father has given Him, not the world. [Okay, that was a rebuttal on your commentary. You don’t have to tell us no one is rebutting.]”
   Consider these scriptures:
   John 3:35; John 6:37-39
   And I don’t see how you could not agree with so many scriptures that seem to state plainly that Jesus is indeed the savior of the world!
   Consider these scriptures:
   John 4:42; I John 4:14; John 1:29; John 6:33; John 12:47; I John 2:2

   Thanks so much,
   Jon Paden
   http://www.churchatheart.com
   churchatheart@yahoo.com

   
   
5. on August 20, 2008 at 12:58 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

   Joe,

   You are using the cut and past method of interpreting scripture and that is very dangerous. You used 2 Peter as a basis to say God stands outside of time. Which no one will agree; however your using that as a basis to defend the very herteical doctrine of a non-eternal hell.

   I can argue against your Jesus being the savior of the world position but I don’t know if it will be fruitful. You have an entire theology and church built on this and I am really saddened by it. I want to go tit for tat with you but again I think the unfruitfulness of it is impossible to avoid. I would ask that you spend much time in prayer and with other believers.

   If someone else is interested in dialoguing with Mr. Pade please have at it.

   
   
6. on August 21, 2008 at 2:08 am | Reply Jon Paden

   Lionel,

   Thank you Lionel for responding to my post (questions). Although I was expecting a more indepth response. Please address:

   Is not the last enemy to be destroyed death itself? Then how do you explain your obvious contradiction of death continuing to abide forever? What is the cut and past method of interpreting scripture? How does a word(s) (aion and aionios) that designate some finite time period be translated to me eternal, everlasting, forever? I have addressed many points (with scripture) in my dialogue with you that you fail to address. If you are so saddened then why the unwillingness to dialogue? Afterall, aren’t we suppose to be helpers one to another? Just like Melvin you shove me off as being heretical with no real explanation as to why (using scripture rightly divided)? How do you intrepret the lake of fire as being a literal fire? This does not make much since when you’ve adequtely studied the book of Revelations.

   Jon Paden

   And why do you insist on calling me Joe?

   
   
7. on August 21, 2008 at 1:08 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

   Joe here are two questions for you. Lets start here.

   1. Do those who become Justified through faith live forever in eternity with God?

   2. How long is the period of Judgement for those who reject God’s grace and die apart from receiving Christ as Savior?

   
   
8. on August 22, 2008 at 1:53 am | Reply Jon Paden

   Lionel,

   (Lioniel you asked):1. Do those who become Justified through faith live forever in eternity with God?

   Jesus spoke of the coming age, in which a promised Life of the ages would be given. As He spoke these things, He knew that His imminent Resurrection would usher in the latter ages, as His Spirit would be poured into human beings, starting with the day of Pentecost.

   As the Apostle John affirms:
   1 John 5:11-12
   And this is the testimony: God has given us aionios-life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
   This Life in the Spirit, concerns the aions/ages of our lives – which is exactly what makes it
   aion-ios. The “age to come” Jesus spoke about began at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), when the Holy Spirit first entered into the heart of men, and that age continues now, and continues onward. It is this “life of the ages” to which immortality is added to the saints. So yes those who are justified through faith live forever (awith God. However, there will be an end or consummation of the ages-fullness of times (Eph 1:9-10; Rev 21)

   (Lioniel you asked): 2. How long is the period of Judgement for those who reject God’s grace and die apart from receiving Christ as Savior?

   I do not have a definite answer to this one. However, the scriptures speak of us and Christ ruling and reining for a figurative “thousand years”. Also scripture says that Christ will rule and reign until all things have been subjected to Him. And then He would give all things and subject Himself to the Father so that God will be all in all. We know that God created ages (aions) to reveal and partly complete His plans, but the ages will come to an end, and then God will be all in all.
   Because Christians were always told that aionios-life is immortality after death (and because the Bible’s original translators made the same mistake), they also believe that aionios-judgment is everlasting torment. As a result, they visit this failed teaching upon the whole world, even while in their deepest hearts they wish they were wrong. They wish billions were not doomed to infinite torture at the hand of the very God who tried his best to save them.

   Let the scripture speak for itself:
   2 Timothy 1:8-11
   Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the time of the ages, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light through the gospel.
   Did you think I was suggesting that because aionios-life is not the same as immortality, that immortality will not come through the gospel? Far from it. You have it here without question: immortality is indeed “brought to light” through the Gospel, and guess what, immortals never die! However, this is only a part of the Gospel. The full Gospel promise includes much more than that.

   Notice the distinction drawn in Paul’s words above between life and immortality. See how immortality is not the only thing illuminated through the Gospel that Paul preached, but life as well. In fact , it looks like immortality is actually added to life. Is this distinction a casual redundancy, or could it be that there is something more to “life” than simply being in existence?
   Consider this scriptures:
   1 Timothy 5:6
   The widow who lives for pleasure is dead although she is still alive.

   Don’t overlook that, because, Paul also taught a solution to this problem given by God’s grace:

   Titus 2:11-12
   For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present age (Greek – nun aion)

   As the scripture says, in this present age (nun aion), God is providing deliverance from “ungodliness and worldly lusts.” If such death presently reigning in these ages, doesn’t it make sense that the solution to that problem is the LIFE of the ages?

   Jon Paden – - – - Jon not Joe

   
   
9. on August 22, 2008 at 2:40 am | Reply lionelwoods7

   Jon,

   Sorry for calling you Joe. As it realtes to this discussion. I appreciate your time but my focus isn’t to debate what has been held by ALL Orthodox Christians over the course of history. There are many who will debate this issue with you. I don’t want to exert the energy. Thanks for your time.

   
   
10. on August 22, 2008 at 2:42 pm | Reply Jon Paden

    You are wrong in your assumption that ALL Orthodox Christians over the course of history have believed that this understanding of scripture is heresy. As a matter of fact not only did Paul seem to preach this ministry of reconciliation, but also many of the respected early church fathers. If you do some research in this area I’m sure you’ll find out that many of the heresies of today (tithing, priest/temple system, praying to angels/dead saints, literal buring fire hell to provide eternal torment, purgatory, etc.) come in large part from the corrupt Roman Catholic Church.

    Consider these statements:

    The Church Fathers on Universalism

    Quotes:

    The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great

    There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. — Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

    For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them…the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. –Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.

    And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled…just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. –Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

    Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. –Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

    These, if they will, may go Christ’s way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. –Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19

    The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed

    In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. –St. Jerome, 331-420

    For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. –Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390

    The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. –Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428

    We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

    Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. –Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)

    Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness …either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.–Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)

    That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, “You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny” unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. –Peter Chrysologus, 435

    I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. –St. Jerome

    Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. — Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

    While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.–Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy

    Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up… The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. –Jerome

    In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord’s passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. –Didymus, 370 AD

    While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. –St. Chrysostom, 398 AD

    Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: “My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent”…Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent.—Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

    The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal. in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus’ Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God’s enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.—Jerome (340 to 420 A.D), commenting on Zephaniah 3:8-10

    Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in he fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. –Didymus the Blind

    So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him “all,” and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is “all in all.” And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be “all in all” –Origen, De Prinicipiis, 3.6.3. (Origen founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.)

    The Son “breaking in pieces” His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state. –Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea

    Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. ‘Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,’ for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection.– Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)

    We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued…. for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. –Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

    For it is needful that evil should some day be wholly and absolutely removed out of the circle of being. –Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

    In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. –Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458

    When death shall no longer exist, or the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then truly God will be all in all. –Origen

    All men are Christ’s, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria

    Jon Paden

    
    
11. on August 22, 2008 at 3:38 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Thanks Jon for your time.

    
    
12. on August 23, 2008 at 9:36 pm | Reply Alan Knox

    Jon,

    I appreciate Lionel’s desire not to get into a long, drawn-out discussion with you on this issue. I was wondering if perhaps you would answer a simple question for me.

    In Matt 25:46, Jesus uses the same adjective (same in English and same in Greek) to describe “eternal punishment” and “eternal life”. In fact, he says that “eternal punishment” is for the unrighteous, and that “eternal life” is for the righteous.

    So, here’s my simple question… Did Jesus really mean “eternal”?

    Thanks,

    -Alan

    
    
13. on August 24, 2008 at 1:50 pm | Reply Jon Paden

    Alan,

    Thanks for your sincere response and question. I addressed this question in detail in post #4 about aionios life and judgement. Read that post and then please explain to me where I am off in my current understanding. Noone that I have tried to discuss this matter with has been able to adequately rebuttal this position. Your question has been of course typical of the questions that people first ask. After I address their question in detail, they usually end the discussion and write me off as preaching heresy and in need of help from God. So please don’t just do the same. Give me explaination of where I am off. I am still and always open for better understanding of the scriptures. Also, you might want to take the time to consider the early church views as it relates to Christian Universalism. You will probably be surprised to find out that many if not most were all of the same view on this subject. I had been told just like you and Lionel and many other sincere believers that this has been considered heresy throughout the early church years. Just like we have had to revisit many subjects that we were taught in error (speaking in tongues, tithing, prosperity gospel, etc.), I believe this is one that true believers should restudy as well. Stop taking others word for things and start doing an indepth study of your own. If you still come to a different understanding, then we must agree to disagree. For the bible says let everyone be convinced in their own mind (Rom 14:5).

    Jon Paden

    
    
14. on August 25, 2008 at 3:49 am | Reply Alan Knox

    Jon,

    You are mistaken in your statement that αἰώνιος does not mean eternal. Similarly, your statement, “As it is, “aionios” does not mean “eternal” at all, as all honest scholarship demands” is both false and deragotory, since you can now claim any disagreement with you is, by defnition, dishonest.

    Insead, let’s look at actual scholars (from BDAG, the standard Greek lexicon) – αἰώνιος = “eternal, everlasting, without beginning or end”.

    You are confusing the noun αἰών with the adjective αἰώνιος.

    -Alan

    
    
15. on August 25, 2008 at 3:11 pm | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

    Jon,

    In light of this phrase:

    “If you still come to a different understanding, then we must agree to disagree.”

    I perceive this statement:

    “I am still and always open for better understanding of the scriptures.”

    as dishonest. You can’t both be open and at the same time planning to agree to disagree. That’s not possible it seems to me. Perhaps you are convinced that you are right. That’s fine but I don’t see you being consistent. So I also have a few questions for you. Without eternal punishment:

    1. What is the gospel?
    2. What are we saved from?
    3. Why was it necessary for Christ to die?
    4. What is God’s attitude toward sin?
    5. Why do you care if others teach eternal damnation if it doesn’t matter?

    
    
16. on August 26, 2008 at 3:22 am | Reply Jon Paden

    Alan,

    You said:
    (Alan) “You are confusing the noun αἰών with the adjective αἰώνιος”

    Consider these two scriptures where the noun (aion) is used but is mistranslated in the KJV/NKJV as eternal.

    Eph 3:11 – according to the eternal (aion) purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Should read – according to the purpose of the age which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I Timothy 1:17 – Now to the King eternal (aion), immortal (aphthartos), invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever (aion eis aion). Amen

    Should read – Now to the King of the age, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory age unto age. Amen.

    Above, we see Paul attributing three distinct characteristics to the King. He is:
    1) of the age/aion
    2) immortal
    3) invisible
    Here is another instance where aion is translated eternal. And we see aion eis aion (meaning – age unto age) translated as forever and ever. By the way, does forever actually need another “ever” attached to make it infinite? Why not “forever and ever …. and ever?” Does three do the trick? How about four? How many “evers” will do?

    Acknowledging that aion means age – and aion eis aion means age unto age – does not limit God, not according to the verse above. He is the God of the aion/age, AND He is immortal, AND He is invisible. AND, unto Him be honor and glory from “age unto age.” Amen.

    Be careful of just taking one commentary or concordance definition of a word. You will find in your studies that different commentaries/concordances/bible dictionaries may have differences of opinion on certain meanings and explanations. Compare different sources with scripture in context to help discern what should probably be rendered in a given verse.

    Jon Paden

    
    
17. on August 26, 2008 at 4:01 am | Reply Jon Paden

    Bro. Lawrence D.,

    1. What is the gospel?

    (Answer) The good news about God’s ultimate plan of redemption/reconciliation of His creation through Jesus Christ.

    2. What are we saved from?

    (Answer) Sin and the penalties of sin.

    3. Why was it necessary for Christ to die?

    (Answer) Let’s start at the beginning; at Creation, when all things were made by Christ. I believe the Scriptures state that He began His work knowing full well about the fall of man that was to come. He had a plan already in place to redeem mankind, since He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). He, who created all things, will “reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross” (Colossians 1:20). This reconciliation or restoration of ALL things was foretold by God when He “spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago” (Acts 3:21). God has appointed His Son to be the “heir of ALL things” (Hebrews 1:2) and in God’s Son “shall ALL the nations be blessed” (Galatians 3:8).
    God has given His Son “authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him” (John 17:2). “The Father has given ALL things into the Son’s hands” (John 3:35) and so “ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God” (Luke 3:6). Because of “the unchangeable character of God’s purpose” (Hebrews 6:17), because His love for His enemies is unchanging and “He is kind to the ungrateful and evil” (Luke 6:35). “He desires ALL people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4). He “gave himself as a ransom for ALL” (1 Timothy 2:6). He “is not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). He “has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL” (Romans 11:32) “for from him and through him and to him are ALL things” (Romans 11:36).
    So God’s plan is “to unite ALL things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). The Father has “put ALL things under Christ’s feet” (Ephesians 1:22) and has “given ALL things into his hands” (John 13:3). Jesus has promised to “draw ALL men” to Himself (John 12:32) because “the Father loves the Son and has given ALL things into his hand” (John 3:35). Jesus said, “ALL that the Father gives me will come to me” (John 6:37). Jesus says that like a good shepherd, He will search for each of His lost sheep “until he finds it” (Luke 15:4). “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:17). “The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for ALL people” (Titus 2:11).
    Jesus is the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Jesus gave His flesh as bread “for the life of the world” (John 6:51). “He gives life to the world” (John 6:33). He is “the light of the world” (John 8:12). “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). “He is the Savior of ALL people” (1 Timothy 4:10), “the Savior of the world” (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14). “He appeared to destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8).
    Jesus “abolished death” (2 Timothy 1:10). “He has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself” (Hebrews 9:26). His power “enables him to subject all things to himself’” (Philippians 3:21). “The gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does” (1 Peter 4:6). He has “the keys of Death and Hades” (Revelation 1:18). He will throw “Death and Hades into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14).
    “In Christ shall all be made alive” (I Corinthians 15:22). He “accomplished the work” that the Father gave Him to do (John 17:4). “He restores all things” (Acts 3:21). “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:10-11). “Every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, `To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever! “‘ (Revelation 5:13).
    “Then comes the end, when he [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For `God has put all things in subjection under his feet.’ But when it says `all things are put in subjection,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).
    These verses have not just been thrown together haphazardly. They are the expression of that purpose that runs through the Bible, a purpose first stated in mankind’s creation in the image of God, a purpose that can be traced throughout the entire Bible, in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets, and most clearly in the New Testament. From it we learn at least three things:
    1 . Christ came claiming the entire human race as His own, to the end that He would save and restore the entire race, not just part of it.
    2 . He came with full power and authority over all men, having received all power in heaven and earth over all hearts, all evil, all wills.
    3. He lived and died and rose again, completely victorious, having fully accomplished the work His Father gave Him to do, which was the salvation
    of the world.

    4. What is God’s attitude toward sin?

    (Answer) The carnal mind is emnity against God (Rom
    For the wages of sin is death (Rom 6)

    5. Why do you care if others teach eternal damnation if it doesn’t matter?

    (Answer) We all desire to share the gospel in truth. However, we do not want to allow paganistic and other traditions of men to distort our understanding of the truth of God’s plan of reconciliation/salvation. We all desire to study to show ourselves approved, a workman not being ashamed but being able to rightly divide the word of truth. We should then be helpers one to another as we continue to grow in Christ. This is what I consider to be real brotherly love.

    (You said) -”You can’t both be open and at the same time planning to agree to disagree. That’s not possible it seems to me. Perhaps you are convinced that you are right. That’s fine but I don’t see you being consistent.”

    (Answer) Maybe I should have stated it differently. I don’t believe that I or anyone else is above correction. What I meant was if after you have presented your argument for a particular doctrine and I have presented my argument and we still come to a difference of understanding of scripture, then we should stay in peace and agree to disagree. Not belittle our fellow brethren in Christ. For there will probably always be disagreements with various subjects in scripture until Christ comes to redeem us and transform us into our glorified (immortal) bodies. Don’t forget that we still know in part! I’m still not saying that I’m above correction on this subject either. I’ve just not been convinced by the rebuttals presented so far. I do greatly appreciate the dialogue and both you and Alan’s willingness and time to address me in this subject matter.

    Jon Paden

    To deny universal restoration and reconciliation is to mutilate the Scriptures. We are not dealing with a few isolated verses in which it might be possible to say that “all” was used loosely and doesn’t really mean “all.” We have a connected series in which link follows link-a series that teaches the actual, not potential, universality of Christ’s Kingdom.

    
    
18. on August 26, 2008 at 4:10 am | Reply Jon Paden

    (Correction to last post)

    4. What is God’s attitude toward sin?

    (Answer) The carnal mind is emnity against God (Rom

    I don’t know why that face appeared instead of 8.

    
    
19. on August 26, 2008 at 1:53 pm | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

    Jon,

    I appreciate your response, however you didn’t answer question #2, although I’m sure you believe you did.

    Let me say conclusively, “death” as you’ve defined it is no punishment at all. Death as you’ve described it is ultimately non-existence. This non-existence is the “penalty” of sin.

    However, before I was born I was non-existent. What sin was I being punished for then? As a matter of fact, before Adam was made he also was non-existent. What sin was he being punished for?

    You see Jon, there was a time when you were not. (And please don’t come with the “I existed in the mind of God” argument. It’s weak and doesn’t begin to address the obvious problem with your definition of “death”) If you’re not born again, according to you there will come a time when you, again, are not. So what was the cause of the original state of your non-existence if that’s all the second death really boils down to?

    My questions were designed to show the emptiness of your beliefs. You see, there is no reason for proclaiming a gospel message in which everyone will be saved anyway. If I’m going to receive salvation in the end anyway or just non-existence then, why bother. By the way, will or can the ones who don’t exist anymore actually know that they don’t exist? What kind of punishment is that?! I mean, isn’t existence a prerequisite to knowledge? Come on Jon, you can’t be serious!

    Recently when the government decided to give us a “stimulus” check, the information was put out because; 1. Not everyone was going to receive a check and, 2. Of those who did receive one, not everyone would receive the same amount. It was, therefore, necessary to make the details available in order to avoid as much confusion as possible.

    The logic for this comes from God. God is logical. He is the source of logic. Therefore, everything that He does operates according to the logical system that He has revealed to us. Going from a state of non-existence to a life span of how many ever years and then back to non-existence and then calling that punishment, is just plain illogical.

    
    
20. on August 26, 2008 at 1:58 pm | Reply Alan Knox

    Jon,

    I did not take “one commentary or concordance definition of a word”. I used an example from a lexicon – which is like a dictionary. I could quote from several different lexicons and commentaries – although concordances would not help in determining definitions. I could pull information from the 2nd century through the 21st century. I could show information from Christians authors and nonChristians authors. All of that information would show αἰώνιος means “eternal”.

    While you warned me about using only one scholarly source, I’ve noticed that your comments are completely void of any scholarly sources. Is there a reason for that?

    -Alan

    
    
21. on August 27, 2008 at 2:26 am | Reply Jon Paden

    Bro. Lawrence D.,

    Your last response has no relevance to what I have stated in my past post. I have never claimed that any soul becomes non existent for their punishment. I have never defined death in this way. What post are you referring to?

    Now let me elaborate on what the lake of fire, second death, and the judgement of the age is about.

    For whom the Lord loves He chastens and scourges every son whom He receives. (Heb 12:6)
    As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten (Rev 3:19)
    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16) Will God not judge, correct, chasten, purify all whom He loves? Will not all in this age or in the age to come be tried by God’s divine fire(I Peter 4:12), be baptized by His fire (Matt 3:11), be refined through His fire (Mal 3:2)(symbolic fire)? For God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29) Isn’t it interesting how we so easily see these scriptures at symbolic fire and when it comes to passages that deal with God’s fire on the unrepentant many error in believing that it’s speaking of a literal flaming fire burning people forever?
    (2 Thes 1:8-9) in flaming fire (not to be taken literally) taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction (aionios destruction – destruction of the age to destroy sin in the person) from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power… (they will not be made alive until the figurative 1000 years is up for they will be in condemnation, torment, judgment, chastisement in that age)- Rev 20:5
    We are now ruling and reigning with Christ in the 1000 years (figuratively speaking- for this is some unknown time period not a literal 1000 year reign on earth- scripture does not say on earth anyway check it out) and are partakers of the first resurrection (Rev 20:4)
    We will continue to reign with Christ until He has put all enemies under His feet (I Cor 15:25)
    You mean to tell me that God commands us to love our enemies and to do good to those who use us but He literally burns all the billions of souls forever and they remain spiritually dead to God forever? How can this be so when the last enemy to be destroyed is death itself? (I Cor 15:26) How then would God be all in all? (I Cor 15:28)
    What is the lake of fire? The lake of fire is the second death (Rev 20:14). What is the first and second death? What is the first and second birth?
    the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual (I Cor 15:46)
    The first death is physical and the second death is a spiritual death. For the second death is death to sin. The first birth is physical but to be born again (second birth –spiritual) one must crucify the flesh (death to sin) through the power of the Holy Spirit (baptized with fire-lake of fire). The lake of fire and brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone (the word brimstone or sulphur explains the character of the fire). The Greek word Theion translated brimstone is the same word Theion which means divine. The verb derived from Theion is Theioo, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god. Therefore, it may be concluded that a lake of fire and brimstone would mean a lake of divine purification.
    Must we deny the power of God to accomplish all that He desires and has preordained before the foundations of the world? Has God indeed shown partiality (respecter of persons) by choosing to only draw a few to Him to be saved? Will not God seek and save all the lost? Is He not fully able to draw all men to Himself? Is He not able to reconcile the whole world to God?

    (Next)
    You said:

    “My questions were designed to show the emptiness of your beliefs. You see, there is no reason for proclaiming a gospel message in which everyone will be saved anyway. If I’m going to receive salvation in the end anyway or just non-existence then, why bother.”

    (Answer)
    Your logic might have you to be led to that conclusion. However, I and others who hold to this position believe it is of utmost importance to proclaim the gospel (good news). What is the good news? That Jesus is the savior of the world. And that through His sacrifical death on the cross all mankind can now be reconciled to God by grace through faith. We no longer have to remain bound by sin. We can be healed of our spiritual sickness. We can now be made alive to God through Christ. We can now be made joint-heirs with Christ, ruling and reigning with Him. We can now inherit the kingdom of God. There is also hope for all of the dead. That in the age to come all others will be drawn to the cross and repent and profess Christ (second death or cast into the lake of fire). And at the consumation of the ages, God will be all in all.

    What about those who live this life however they want with the hope of eventually be saved? Why serve Christ now?

    Short answer. If you love Christ you will obey His commandments. It is amazing how quick people will turn back to their carnal ways if the threat of a literal buring fire hell is removed from their theology. My question to you then would be. Do you really love Christ? Or are you just serving Him to avoid buring in hell for eternity?

    Why serve Christ now? Would you not rather be alive to God and dead to sin now, in this age (aion or eon)?

    (Rom 7:23) For the wages of sin is death
    (Rom 8:7) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spirtually minded is life and peace.
    (Rom 5:9) we shall be saved from the wrath through Him

    (You said):
    “My questions were designed to show the emptiness of your beliefs.”

    (My response):
    So far your responses have been rather empty in that very little if any scripture has been used to defend your biblical understanding on this subject! Furthermore you have failed to address any of the questions that I pose to you’ll on the problems I see with the doctrine of eternal punishment/torment for all unbelievers in this age!

    Jon Paden

    
    
22. on August 27, 2008 at 2:54 am | Reply Jon Paden

    Alan,

    You said:

    “I could pull information from the 2nd century through the 21st century. I could show information from Christians authors and nonChristians authors. All of that information would show αἰώνιος means “eternal”.”

    (Answer)

    Consider the writings of very prominent and respected Biblical scholars regarding “aionios:”

    Ellicott’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46). Everlasting punishment–life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered “eternal” does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).

    Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless “eternal” is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of “endlessly existing,” and thus to be practically a synonym for “everlasting.” But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370)

    Jeremy Taylor, a world famous Protestant hell-fire advocate wavers, and after his ebullient flashes of Systematic Hellology, he is constrained to the following modification in Jeremy Taylor’s Works (vol. 3, p. 43): “Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting,” then adds, “The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period.” Would that other hell-fire advocates were so honest.

    The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as “forever,” means in itself no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period.” Thus me olam does not mean “from eternity” but “of old” Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam. (Note: even the Catholic translators of The Jerusalem Bible and The New American Bible have failed to heed the scholarship of their own Catholic authorities.)

    Saint Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastema, “an eonian interval.” How many intervals do you know of that are “endless” or “eternal?”

    The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible says, “Eternity: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word “olam,” which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gn. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated ‘forever’ means itself no more that ‘for an indefinitely long period’ Thus ‘me olam’ does not mean ‘from eternity’ but ‘of old’ (Gn. 6:4, etc.) In the N.T. ‘aion’ is used as the equivalent of ‘olam.’”

    The famous Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible under the headings for “eternal” shows olam, aion, and its adjective aionios to mean “age” and “age-lasting.” He also translated a Bible called Young’s Literal Bible which also translated these words correctly.

    In addition to the above, there are many scholarly volumes which have voiced protest against the way the King James Bible and others have mistranslated this word.
    Many orthodox Christian historians acknowledge that the majority of the early church did not teach eternal torment. A couple of examples: Geisler-”The belief in the inalienable capability of improvement of all rational beings, and the limited duration of future punishment was so general in the West, and among the opponents of Origen, that it seems entirely independent of his system.” (Eccles. Hist., 1-212). (Origen has been accused of bringing into the church the heresy of the salvation of all. Geisler points out the belief was prevalent even apart from Origen’s influence.) The German theologian and historian Johann Christoph Doerderlin writes: “In proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more he cherished and defended the hope of the termination of future torments.” Professor and historian Henry Oxenham informs us that the, “Doctrine of endless punishment was not believed at all by some of the holiest and wisest of the Fathers, and was not taught as an integral part of the Christian faith by any, even of those who believed it as an opinion.” Historian Pfaff says: The ultimate restoration of the lost was an opinion held by very many Jewish teachers, and some of the Fathers.” Dietelmaier: “Universalism in the fourth century drove its roots down deeply, alike in the East and West, and had very many defenders.” Reuss: “The doctrine of a general restoration of all rational creatures has been recommended by very many of the greatest thinkers of the ancient church, and of modern times.” (Hist. De la Theol. Apost.).
    Prior to Augustine in the 5th century, the vast majority of Christians including the leadership believed in the Salvation of all mankind through Jesus Christ. St. Basil the Great (c. 329-379) in his De Asceticis wrote: “The mass of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished.” St. Jerome (342-420): “I know that most understand the story of Nineveh and its King, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures.” The Christian leader most instrumental in bringing in the damnable heresy of eternal torment, Augustine, admits himself that “There are very many (imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures do not believe in endless torments.” (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c.29) Imagine, the champion of the doctrine of eternal torment admitting out of his own mouth that as late as the 5th century many or the majority of believers did not believe in eternal torment and he said they did not deny the Scriptures in believing so.
    Of the six theological schools known to the early church, 4 taught the salvation of all, one taught annihilation, and only one taught eternal torment.
    The Greek word aion was not used to mean eternal in the early church writings.
    The President of the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in 381, St. Gregory of Nazianzus was an outspoken Universalist, that is, he believed in the Salvation Of All Mankind Through Jesus Christ. Would the church designate a heretic as its head at such an important meeting?
    When Emperor Justinian finally declared the teaching of the Salvation of all as heresy, he used the word “ateleutetos” to describe “eternal punishment,” not aionion which is the Biblical term. If aionion meant “eternal” why didn’t he use it? He didn’t because it didn’t mean eternal!
    Many writings are still preserved from the early Christian bishops which clearly show they did not teach eternal torment. To mention just a few: Clement Alexandrinus, Gregory Thaumaturgus, Ambrose, Titus of Bostra, Diodore of Tarsus, Isidore of Alexandria, Origen, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, etc.
    When studying the lives of the early leaders, those embracing the Salvation of all clearly showed much more love and fruit in their lives than those who taught eternal torment. Compare Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa with Tertullian and Cyprian.
    If the doctrine of the salvation all was heresy, why didn’t the church declare it as such until the church entered the dark ages? Could it be that when the pagan doctrine of eternal torment entered the church, this very doctrine brought about the gross darkness which the church plunged into?
    It was not until the church left the Greek text and went to the Latin Vulgate Text that large numbers began to believe in eternal torment. That was because Jerome mistranslated those very words we have just been talking about. The Latin Vulgate perpetuated the error. As long as the Church primarily used the Greek Text, it taught the Salvation of All Mankind.
    As late as the 16th century lexicographers such as Phavorinus knew that aion was just a time word. But he also noted where the idea of changing the meaning came from. He writes, “Aion, time also life, also habit, or way of life. Aion is also the eternal and endless as it seems to the theologian.” Here we see where the deception came from, the theologian!

    (You also said in post #14 ):

    “Similarly, your statement, “As it is, “aionios” does not mean “eternal” at all, as all honest scholarship demands” is both false and deragotory, since you can now claim any disagreement with you is, by defnition, dishonest.’”

    (And then in your last post you said):

    “I could pull information from the 2nd century through the 21st century. I could show information from Christians authors and nonChristians authors. All of that information would show αἰώνιος means “eternal”.”

    (My response to this):

    In light of all that I just presented, who is really being dishonest here?

    By the way, will you and Bro. Lawrence D. use some scripture references when defending your theology? And will you please address some of the many questions I have posed to you’ll?

    Jon Paden

    
    
23. on August 27, 2008 at 7:00 am | Reply Bro. Lawrence D.

    Jon,

    At this point we may actually be talking past one another. I am starting in the area of logic because I don’t believe that we can be honest with the text of scripture if we’re committed to illogical thinking. You’ve already proven that your standard answer to “word X means this” is to say “no it doesn’t”. That’s not going to get us anywhere. Therefore, this will be my last post on this subject here. All other correspondence (and only for honest dialogue. I don’t have time for anything else) can be done by e-mailing me at lawrencedacus@aol.com. By the way, I do stand corrected on the “non-existence” issue.

    Your questions and scripture citations are all over the place but I will try to address what I think is important. So here goes:

    1. Hebrews 12:6 – If it is your belief that this scripture has anything to do with the “everlasting” punishment of those who die without having their sins atoned for, then you are sadly mistaken. Eisigesis, at it’s worst, could be the only thing that would lead to this conclusion. This text of scripture is being offered to the Hebrew believers in order to encourage them to endure the hard times that they will face as “chastening” from a loving Father. It is also meant to provide a reasoning for this chastening. God uses it to produce in them the “peaceful fruit of righteousness”. This happens on this side of death and not after. See also I Corinthians 11:31-32 for more information on the present chastening of the Lord on those whom He has chosen.

    2. Rev. 3:19 – See #1. Also, doesn’t the phrase “as many as I love” denote a specific group of people? How could this be everybody?

    3. John 3:16 – Here you have to define “love” and “world” and then explain why only the specific group “whosoever believeth” will not perish. It doesn’t say all will not perish but only those who believe. Read the second half of the verse and then read all the way down to verse 18 (you mentioned verse 17 earlier) and see that some group is “condemned already”. Condemned to what Jon? By the way, since Jesus is God in flesh and God loving the world in your mind means “everybody” then why in John 17:9 does He not then pray for all these people that He loves? That’s not very loving is it?

    4. So far as when fire is literal or figurative, I believe language and context should guide our view. You can not say (at least not consistently) that because a word is figurative in one place that it then has to be figurative everywhere else. Hence the different meanings/usages of words like “love”, “all”, “justified”, “day”, etc. that we debate over. By the way, didn’t you use this very same tactic when you were asked about eternal life? Didn’t you say that the eternal there was eternal but not when in reference to damnation. Let’s look at Daniel 12:2 “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to EVERLASTING life, but the others to disgrace and EVERLASTING contempt.” Now let’s look at John 5:28-29 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.” So now, Jon does the word EVERLASTING have two different meanings in the same verse? And what is the resurrection of judgment?

    5. What God instructs us in the realm of our human ability has nothing to do with how He exercises His divine perogative. Therefore, it is completely consistent for Him to instruct us to love our enemies. This shouldn’t be hard to grasp since we were all at one times His enemies and He loved us. Completely consistent. By the way, God is the only One who can perfectly exercise love and justice. Don’t attempt to force them apart because of our human inability. The people who end up in hell did not want to be with God. And He loved them so much He was willing to give them exactly what they wanted, an existence without Him. Praise God for His love!

    6. You typed: “Must we deny the power of God to accomplish all that He desires and has preordained before the foundations of the world? Has God indeed shown partiality (respecter of persons) by choosing to only draw a few to Him to be saved? Will not God seek and save all the lost? Is He not fully able to draw all men to Himself? Is He not able to reconcile the whole world to God?”

    And I say:

    I’m not denying God’s power. Since God chooses us by “unconditional election”, He is not showing partiality or having respecter of persons. No God will not seek and save ALL the lost. Yes God is able to draw all men to Himself. He has chosen not to do so. Yes God is able to reconcile the whole world to Himself. But, again, He has chosen not to.

    7. You typed: “If you love Christ you will obey His commandments. It is amazing how quick people will turn back to their carnal ways if the threat of a literal buring fire hell is removed from their theology. My question to you then would be. Do you really love Christ? Or are you just serving Him to avoid buring in hell for eternity?”

    And I say:

    Are you teaching “sinless perfectionism”? Are you living sinlessly perfect? Are you talking about yourself turning back to your carnal ways? Because I still believe in a literal burning fire hell. If there is no punishment for rejecting Christ, then He hasn’t saved anybody from anything. Therefore, what is there to love about Him? He told me to fear the One who could cast both body and soul alive into hell? If it doesn’t exist or it’s not really literal, then He was lying? Why serve a liar? By the way, I serve Christ because He enabled me to by regenerating me. I did not act on my own volition. He chose me!

    Sorry my man, but you don’t have scripture or logic on your side on this one. Without an actual punishment for sins; God is not just, the cross of Christ accomplished nothing, the gospel is not good news because there’s no bad news and we might as well “eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.”!

    
    
24. on August 28, 2008 at 2:04 am | Reply Jon Paden

    Bro. Lawrence D.,

    1. Hebrews 12:6 – Does God not love His enemies? Does God not chasten whom He loves? Does God not love the whole world? Does God not instruct us to love our enemies as well?

    2. Refer to #1

    3. Jesus prayed for many people and for various reasons throughout scripture. In light of many other scriptures plainly stating the fact that God is indeed reconciling the whole world to Himself. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). And finally, who are the all that is referred to in so many scriptures:

    He, who created all things, will “reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross” (Colossians 1:20). God has appointed His Son to be the “heir of ALL things” (Hebrews 1:2) and in God’s Son “shall ALL the nations be blessed” (Galatians 3:8).
    God has given His Son “authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him” (John 17:2). “The Father has given ALL things into the Son’s hands” (John 3:35) and so “ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God” (Luke 3:6). “He desires ALL people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4). He “gave himself as a ransom for ALL” (1 Timothy 2:6). He “is not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). He “has consigned ALL to disobedience, that he may have mercy on ALL” (Romans 11:32) “for from him and through him and to him are ALL things” (Romans 11:36).
    So God’s plan is “to unite ALL things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth” (Ephesians 1:10). The Father has “put ALL things under Christ’s feet” (Ephesians 1:22) and has “given ALL things into his hands” (John 13:3). Jesus has promised to “draw ALL men” to Himself (John 12:32) because “the Father loves the Son and has given ALL things into his hand” (John 3:35). Jesus said, “ALL that the Father gives me will come to me” (John 6:37). “God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him” (John 3:17). “The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for ALL people” (Titus 2:11).
    Jesus is the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). “He is the Savior of ALL people” (1 Timothy 4:10), “His power “enables him to subject all things to himself’” (Philippians 3:21).
    “In Christ shall all be made alive” (I Corinthians 15:22). “He restores all things” (Acts 3:21). “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:10-11).
    For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For `God has put all things in subjection under his feet.’ But when it says `all things are put in subjection,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

    4. I’ve addressed this already. Please refer to post #8 above. Question for you though. Is the lake of fire referred to in Revelation literal or figurative? If literal this does not seem to make any since if Death and Hades are thrown in it.

    5. Is it love to create something that you knew full well was going to sin and be punished by burning them in a literal fire for eternity? Don’t forget, even those who are just cowardly are going to be thrown in this eternal burning torment forever as well. Just for being cowardly. We the creation seem to be held to a much higher standard in displaying love and mercy towards our enemies than does the creator. This is not making much logical sense to me!

    6. You said:

    “No God will not seek and save ALL the lost. Yes God is able to draw all men to Himself. He has chosen not to do so. Yes God is able to reconcile the whole world to Himself. But, again, He has chosen not to.”

    (Response)
    How can you honestly say this enlight of so many scriptures that speak just the opposite of what you say? Is your logic and opinions of more authority than the scirptures themselves?

    7. You seem to have not done much study on another mistranslated word “hell”. Maybe this will help:

    “Hell” is neither a Hebrew or a Greek word (both Old and New Testaments were written in those languages), nor did it primarily indicate “a place of torment.” Biblical translators actually derived it from a secular German word – spelled hel – meaning nothing more than concealed or covered. The concept of a demon regulated horror-house was indeed derived from that word, but it actually evolved from Teutonic mythology.

    Not only is hell an ancient pagan tradition (not at all unique to Christianity), but the ancient Israelites did not understand death that way according to the Holy Scripture. This is why modern Bible translations are completely evicting that word from the Old Testament! Now, why would any Bible translation seek to remove a word unless it did not belong there in the first place? Because this disgusting fable, originated from a place other than God’s Holy Word – yet was craftily slipped in by the dogma motivated church of ages past.

    The King James Version erratically assigns two meanings (“hell” and “the grave”) to one Hebrew word: “sheol” (pronounced showl). Do “hell” and “the grave” mean the same thing? Ask the church, ask anyone, and they will say “of course not!” In fact, open a modern Bible, and you will find they have all silently eliminated this deceit! How have they repaired this glaring contradiction? Not by translating sheol as hell consistently. Quite the opposite. They fixed the problem by contradicting the King James Version outright, and eliminating “hell” from the Old Testament altogether!

    But, unfamiliar to the Christian majority, the word “hell,” in the entire Bible was actually translated from four unique words: Sheol, Gehenna (a valley in Jerusalem used for dumping refuse), Hades, and Tartarus.

    Please restudy the word “hell” and your understanding on this subject may change.

    (You said):

    “Sorry my man, but you don’t have scripture or logic on your side on this one.”

    (My response):

    I would guess that those who are humble to receive correction and who are willing to restudy the scriptures would more likely say that about about your logic and minimal usage of scripture that you have used to defend your argument.

    (Finally, you said):

    “Without an actual punishment for sins; God is not just, the cross of Christ accomplished nothing, the gospel is not good news because there’s no bad news and we might as well “eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.”!”

    (My response)

    I believe I have already addressed this adequtely in post #21.

    I’m enjoying this honest dialogue over this blog. I would love to continue this discussion with you for all to read, for I think it would be fruitful to many. However, if you so desire to only continue this dialogue through email, I am willing to do so.

    Sincerly,
    Jon Paden
    churchatheart@yahoo.com

    
    
25. on October 6, 2008 at 4:21 pm | Reply servantoftheKing

    Jon,

    Are you sincerely looking to “have a better understanding of scripture” and “avoid error” as you stated, or just looking to promote your Universalism beliefs? You are truly the only one who can answer that question, but your posts definitely belie your intent.

    Heresy lies in the sense assigned, not in the word written. As you rightly pointed out, the scriptures do not err, and God does not contradict Himself. But its easy to take scripture out of context and build a false pretext if we don’t have sound rules for interpretation.. And while it doesnt appear that it would be not fruitful to engage in this debate with you based on sound biblical hermeneutics without a Herculean effort (or Holy Spirit) (you have weaved yourself a tangled web my friend), I will make an attempt from reason to help you see the troubled road of your belief. Afterall, God does not ask us to leave our minds at the door when we come to HIM, as I am sure you would agree, reason comes from God, and therefore our faith must be a reasoned one, right?.

    With that said, you personally may not be comfortable with the fact that Gods word teaches eternal punishment for sins (or that billions of souls will be doomed forever at the very hand of God who tried His best to save them, as your mischaracterized the classic orthodox position), and can read your interpretation “into” (eisogesis ) different scriptures to support that belief, but the bottom line is, God is holy and just! HE will and must punish those who hate HIM and reject the sacrificial offering of HIS SON. Its not because HE is unloving, but because they hate HIM and their sins against HIM demand justice. HE is a just God. Man continually shakes his fist at God, defies HIM to rule over their sinful lives, and mocks HIM. They suppress the truth of Gods revelation in unrighteousness and refuse to glorify HIM. And as God gives them over to their ways as punishment for the sinfulness, their hearts grow more and more callused, And instead of repenting and turning to God, plunge further into their hard hearted sinful ways. Mankind doesn’t one day wake up and see how wicked he is and has a change of heart and begins to love God. He is at war with HIM. They blaspheme HIS holy name and make every attempt to distort who HE is, even going so far as to conjure up religions to try to appease their own conscience, creates false images and builds false systems knowing that he is living in opposition to his Creator. He deserves hell and even that wont make him repent of his sins (or the lake of fire or whatever term you wish to attach to it) It’s the kindness of God that leads to repentance. The amazing thing is that HE in His graciousness will save ANY! And it is only by HIS grace will any ever be saved from HIS wrath.. That is the clear teaching of scripture that Im sure, you can not deny. Its not the enduring of punishment that brings about salvation from that wrath (a point I believe others have tried to get you to conclude by asking what are we saved from?). Only grace through faith in Christ alone!

    Think through your belief on punishment/chastening, as it is a perilously close equivalent, more or less, to the doctrine of purgatory, which you denounced as heretical. Having your sins purged or atoned for any other way then the sacrificial death of the cross of Christ is not only not true, but anathema.

    To teach universal reconciliation renders faith as meaningless, the need for repentance pointless, and preaching the gospel unnecessary for in its end “all roads lead to God” as I believe Bro Lawrence pointed out earlier. Its not a fact of “his logic”, but logic itself. Mormons, Muslims, JW’s and all other religions will experience salvation in the ultimate sense, for they too will ultimately experience eternal life (however you wish to quantify that) in the very presence of the God whom they always hated, mocked, blasphemed HIS holy name and persecuted, scorned and hated those who love HIM for trusting in HIM. Distorting the bad news makes the cross not quite so necessary (since after all, you can pay for your sins in their totality, in full yourself eventually and come out the other side happily ever after), and faith in God quite dispensable (doesn’t matter if you trust HIM or not, the outcome is the same one day) and the good news a matter of personal preference to life with God. But if universal reconciliation is false, then you send many to their graves with a hope that is no hope at all, and one that I might add is not taught anywhere in scripture without distorting content.

    I pray that the thought of the horrible consequences of what happens if you are wrong would cause you to think and truly “seek a better understanding of scripture” and “avoidance of error” and wisdom which comes from HIM who alone is the fountain of truth.

    
    
26. on October 9, 2008 at 3:30 pm | Reply Jon Paden

    Servant of the King,

    Please address specifically where I am off in my understanding with the mistranslated words (in KJV and some other popular translations) hell, and eternal/everlasting. Your doctrine of eternal hell fire stands on your understanding on these words mistranslated from greek. I used to believe like you until I further studied the subjects of death, 2nd death (lake of fire), resurrections, and judgment. To believe in eternal hell fire would contradict so many scriptures. Some of the obvious contradictions is how can someone remain spirtually dead to God for eternity when the Bible clearly states that death itself will be destroyed? How can God be all and in all at the consumatioon of the ages as the Bible clearly states? The Bible says that all things whether on earth or in heaven are being reconciled to God through Christ. (Does it not?)

    I have addressed what the gospel message is about in previous post #21.

    All those who become alive to God through God’s grace and through faith in Christ Jesus in this present age are saved from the wrath to come in the age of judgment (aionios judgment/condemnation). You fail to understand God’s plans for the ages.

    Why would our all loving all knowing all powerful God design/create beings that He knew would fail Him and live a hard life on earth to die and then experience torment in fire for eternity? Doesn’t make much logical sense! Why would our perfect God require us to love and forgive our enemies yet He will torment, for eternity, all of His enemies? Again, doesn’t make much logical sense!

    Please don’t just write me off as preaching/teaching heresy if you cannot address the apparent problems with your current understanding.

    Jon Paden
    churchatheart@yahoo.com
    http://www.churchatheart.com

    
    
27. on October 15, 2008 at 9:40 pm | Reply servantoftheKing

    Jon,

    As my intent was to get you to begin to think of the implications of your teaching and the dangers of it, from reviewing other posts on this subject, I dont think I will get any further in the discussion then those before me with regards to getting you to see where you are in error. I believe sufficient evidence was presented as to why, I believe Alan gave an accepted standard definition of the greek word “aion” from a respected source in a previous post to which I could add more, but that would lead to more of the same “does not, does too” argument. But as far as “problems with my current understanding” I wont attempt to say that I can completely understand the infinite unsearchable depths of the mind of God, but I certainly dont see any problems with what I have stated (many men, much wiser than I, prominent orthodox scholars, theologians, and teachers consider this teaching as heretical). However, what is clearly revealed in scripture is evident. God will not save all from His wrath! Not in this age or any other. And no matter how much it contradicts with your understanding and interpretation of particular texts, it does not change the fact that it is the clear teaching of scripture. The analogy of faith is a fundamental rule of sound biblical hermeneutics, which is scripture interprets scripture. No scripture can be interpreted in a way to render it in contradiction to what is clearly taught elsewhere in scripture. Therefore, the statement that God saves only those who put their trust in the atoning work of Christ, and God is Saviour of all men (only as you understand it to mean) can not coexist without God being illogical/contradictory, unless all believe, which I dont think is your argument, OR the “all” that is refered to here is not every single person that has ever lived. Therefore, its not my misunderstanding of Gods plan of redemption here, but you put words into Gods holy mouth that He never uttered, which is that the rest will be saved later from His wrath by undergoing the “age/time judgment” as you call it and then the penalty for their sins is paid for (which is taught nowhere in scripture), based upon you faulting scripture for its use of language that is not different from the way we use it today. Please tell me if I mischaracterize your position here.

    Honestly, the conversation seems to me similar to engaging those with cultic beliefs in that they insist on asking “why would an all loving God make only one way for salvation or….” and then set up an argument to make God out to be some cruel deity if He does anything against what they perceive as loving. Beware my brother (I hope and pray) that you dont create a false image of the Divine One that takes away from His holiness based upon your standard. God isnt loving because of what He does, but rather what He does is loving because He is God and He IS love! He is the measuring line, not your understanding of what love is.

    Your questions about what God will do differentiates from what He requires of us have nothing at all to do with logic, for HE is God. Vegence is His. And your attempt to make any other response illogical is based upon your own flawed straw man argument. IF God did “design/create beings that He knew would fail Him and live a hard life on earth to die and then experience torment in fire for eternity” are you arguing that He would be any less good? That certainly seems to be what you implied here. But let me ask you….
    Does His foreknowledge of what man would do facilitate that He HAS to save them?
    Would His lack of saving some somehow then make Him unjust?
    Unfair?
    I believe the apostle Paul anticipates this argument in Rom 9 ……and will you reply back to God???

    
    
28. on October 16, 2008 at 2:50 am | Reply Jon Paden

    Servant of the King,

    I will repeat this again for you:

    “Please don’t just write me off as preaching/teaching heresy if you cannot address the apparent problems with your current understanding.”

    I think it’s getting pretty obvious of who’s teaching biblical truth regarding this matter and who is just sputtering alot of church tradition and opinions!

    Many orthodox Christian historians acknowledge that the majority of the early church did not teach eternal torment.
    It was not until the church left the Greek text and went to the Latin Vulgate Text that large numbers began to believe in eternal torment. That was because Jerome mistranslated those very words we have just been talking about. The Latin Vulgate perpetuated the error. As long as the Church primarily used the Greek Text, it taught the Salvation of All Mankind.

    If I’m teaching heresy by saying that God’s plan entails reconciling the whole world to Himself, then did many of the early church fathers (before 300 AD) also teach heresy? Or could it be that heresy has been introduced to you and therefore you are teaching heresy?

    
    
29. on October 18, 2008 at 12:02 am | Reply servantoftheKing

    Jon,

    If the comment that I am “sputtering alot of church traditions” was meant to offend me ….it didnt! I have no problem with being in line with the faith as the true church and Apostles taught. Afterall, the early church document, the apostles creed ends with the belief of “life everlasting”, the hope to which I too was called.

    You can pose that question all you want about addressing the apparent problems with my understanding, but as of yet, you have not presented any!

    Again, context is always the key in determing usage in scripture. Just like reading any other book. 1 Tim 6:16 is a perfect example of the word aionios correctly rendered eternal.

    Also, citing those who are “above my pay grade” in the original Greek language:
    aion – – age, world

    “for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age.”

    Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

    aionion, aionios – – eternal

    “aionios,” the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7).”

    Rom. 16:26 – ” . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . .”

    1 Tim. 6:16 – “. . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”

    1 Pet. 5:10 – ” . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,”

    Mark 3:29 – ” . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”

    etc.

    SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

    “describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26,

    Rom. 16:25 – ” . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,”

    Rom 16:26 – “. . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,”

    2 Tim. 1:9 – “. . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”

    Titus 1:2 – “the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised” long ages ago”

    SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

    Eis tous aionios ton aionion – – Forever and Ever, Lit. “into the age of the ages”

    “unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future – ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally.”

    Phil. 4:20 – “. . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever.”

    Rev. 19:3 – ” . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever.”

    Rev. 20:20 – “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

    SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.

    Strong’s Number: 166 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word Word Origin
    aijwvnioß from (165)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Aionios 1:208,31
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    ahee-o’-nee-os Adjective

    Definition
    without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
    without beginning
    without end, never to cease, everlasting

    The Greek word aion [aijwvn] (age, era, lengthy time, eternity) in the Septuagint and New Testament corresponds to the Hebrew Old Testament’s olam ['l/[] (a long time, eternity);
    Bakers Dictionary on Biblical Theology

    (Matthew 25:46; Mark 3:29; Hebrews 6:2; 2th 1:9; Matthew 18:8; 25:41; Jude 1:7). The Scripture as clearly teaches the unending duration of the penal sufferings of the lost as the “everlasting life,” the “eternal life” of the righteous. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express (1) the eternal existence of God (1 Timothy 1:17; Romans 1:20; 16:26); (2) of Christ (Revelation 1:18); (3) of the Holy Ghost (Hebrews 9:14); and (4) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Matthew 25:46; Jude 1:6)
    M.G. Easton M.A., D.D., Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Third Edition

    I could go on, but I think the point is established.

    And though you presented a list of those who believed in Universalism of some sort, does that therefore make it true? Is it consistent with the whole teaching of scripture? It doesnt matter how many people taught it as there has always been heretical teaching that the church has had to stand up and denounce. For error is frequently perpetuated. Origen was denounced at the 2nd council of Constantinople, and it wasnt because the Church went into the dark ages as you tried to imply. It was because he was in error! The great expositor Origen also fell into heresy!(he was trained in platonist thought as were many others you mentioned like Clement, Gregory, and Isidore) And we could go down the list as to church councils, creeds, and confessions as to what they taught, denouncing this teaching. But above all, what matters most is does the word of God teach it? And that is an emphatic no! No where in scripture do we see God saving people apart from the work of Christ! And it is simply not true to say that “As long as the Church primarily used the Greek Text, it taught the Salvation of All Mankind” . Iraneus who sat under Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle was never to have know to have taught it. And of course, none of the Apostles themselves ever taught it either, as well as the Head of the church Himself! And the list goes on…..prior to AD300 and after as well.

    I noticed you didnt answer any of my questions. Was that intentional?

    Why did Jesus say “I AM the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me”? Was He claiming to really be the only way to God?

    And “If your eye makes you sin, pluck it out. It is better to enter the “kingdom of God” with one eye than having to eyes to be cast into Gehenna where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched (quoting IS 66:24)? Is the fire quenched?

    Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved!

    
    
30. on October 18, 2008 at 2:28 am | Reply Jon Paden

    I’m sorry if you felt that I was being ofensive in what I stated. I never want to come across as arrogant or puffed up in pride. Please forgive me.

    Please refer to my previous post on this subject. I have already covered most of your questions. I have never denied the fact that Christ is the only way to God.

    You said:

    “Iraneus who sat under Polycarp who was a disciple of John the Apostle was never to have know to have taught it.”

    Consider this quote:

    Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. –Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

    I posted many others in post #9

    
    
31. on October 21, 2008 at 12:13 am | Reply servantoftheKing

    Jon,

    I appreciate the apology and civility.

    While I have read your previous post, I still dont find an answer to the questions I asked?

    1. IF God did “design/create beings that He knew would fail Him and live a hard life on earth to die and then experience torment in fire for eternity” are you arguing that He would be any less good? Any less merciful?

    2. Would His lack of saving some somehow then make Him unjust? Unfair?

    The quote you provide of Iraneaus doesnt prove he taught Universalism, and I dont believe he did. It only shows he taught that God would not allow him to remain forever irrevocably in his cursed sinful state and therefore man would suffer the loss of no one ever having a chance to be reconciled to God. It is merely a continuation of the protoevangelium and a foretaste of His grace. For you see, man died spiritually in the garden. And from there physical death was introduced. Death was unnatural. It was the curse for rebellion. Apart from God changing the fate of any, he was without hope. But God determined to provide a way for man to be reconciled to Him through the death of His Son on the cross. To bear their ultimate penalty for sin, which is death, for those who would believe on Him. And to placate the wrath of God for mans transgression and living in rebellion to God. Therefore, death no longer has victory over believers in Christ. Its not their final state, forever an enemy of God because of their sins. God made them alive with Christ and seated in the heavenlies! So the final enemy that man does conquer is death!(as you asked in previous posts) It no longer has power over those whom Christ died for. They died in Him! They no longer should fear it, for it ushers them into the very presence of God, and they become practically what God already called them positionally! When they crossover from this life, (or if the Lord returns before then) they are forever freed from the power of sin and death and death, the last enemy, is swallowed up in victory! Death has no sting! Praise the Lord!

    2 last questions

    Does man deserve to be saved?

    If Christ IS the only way to God, how is it that some get their by placing their trust in Him for their salvation (save from the wrath to come of Almighty God), and others by their own personal suffering?

    
    
32. on October 21, 2008 at 4:02 am | Reply Jon Paden

    ServantoftheKing,

    I will attempt to address each of your questions more specifically.

    1. “IF God did “design/create beings that He knew would fail Him and live a hard life on earth to die and then experience torment in fire for eternity” are you arguing that He would be any less good? Any less merciful?”

    Even we consider torturing people for any length of time as cruel and inhumane punishment, but yet we attribute just that to our Creator who is made to seem cruel by tormenting billions of people forever. We say God is love and that His mercy endures forever yet we tell others that He will torture you by fire (forever) if you don’t accept Christ before you die (how cruel). I have found that some are turned off from the gospel of Christ just because of that thought. Does God somehow take pleasure in tormenting His human creation by a literal fire for eternity? What do the scriptures state about God and His pleasure/desires:

    Isaiah 46:10
    Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

    Job 23:13-14
    But He is unique, and who can make Him change? And whatever His soul desires, that He does. For He performs what is appointed for me, and many such things are with Him.

    2. “Would His lack of saving some somehow then make Him unjust? Unfair?”

    We both know that God is just/fair. That’s why the bible says that vengeance is for the Lord. So can we have a clue as to how God judges/corrects? Of course we can we look at Christ example to us. Christ tells us to love our enemies and to do good to those who wrong us and speak all manor of evil against us. Yet we are somehow held to a higher standard of love, mercy, and forgiveness than God Himself?

    3. “Does man deserve to be saved?”

    SAVED FROM THE WRATH TO COME AND FROM SINS DOMINION IN THIS PRESENT AGE – No. All have sinned and gone astray. It is through God’s grace and our faith that we are SAVED FROM THE WRATH TO COME AND FROM SINS DOMINION IN THIS PRESENT AGE. This is only a part of the reconciliation process of all of creation. Yet God’s ultimate plan of reconciliation also deals with those who will not be SAVED FROM THE WRATH TO COME AND FROM SINS DOMINION IN THIS PRESENT AGE. This is apart of God’s design/creation for humankind. The way of reconciliation being laid by God before the foundation of the world (ages) begin.

    4. “If Christ IS the only way to God, how is it that some get their by placing their trust in Him for their salvation (save from the wrath to come of Almighty God), and others by their own personal suffering?”

    We are presently being corrected/judged/tried/refined/baptized by God’s fire. In the age of judgment all others will also be corrected/judged/tried/refined/baptized by God’s fire. However, they miss out on ruling and reigning with Christ during the figurative 1000 year reign. They miss out on being made alive to Christ in this present age. They miss out on being joint heirs with Christ.

    
    
33. on October 28, 2008 at 4:21 pm | Reply servantoftheKing

    Jon,

    Im not quite certain I understand your response to question 1. Are you saying that God will not inflict judgment upon those who are not saved from His wrath by placing their trust in Christ? Is that your position? Or is it your position that God will “torture billions of people” for a while but not forever? Please clarify.

    Again, you are distorting the truth of God for the sake of your faulty theology. You say “He will torture you by fire (forever) if you don’t accept Christ before you die (how cruel)” to make it seem as if God would somehow be cruel to judge. But that’s not the biblical position. People don’t receive judgment for “not accepting Christ before they die”. They are judge for THEIR SINS!!! And thats not cruel. Its justice! That is the clear teaching of scripture . John 3 says they are judged already and that they hate the Light because their deeds are evil! (v18)So the wrath of God abides on them and they will not see life!(v36). You may believe there are these “billions” of good innocent souls that will escape Gods wrath apart from Christ, but nowhere in the bible is that taught! The bible teaches that mankind is horribly evil and sinful (Rom 1:18-31) with a sick deceitful heart (Jer17:9) will not seek God (Rom 3:13-18) enemies of God (Col 1:21) and by nature children of wrath (Eph 2:3)

    You stated “Yet God’s ultimate plan of reconciliation also deals with those who will not be SAVED FROM THE WRATH TO COME AND FROM SINS DOMINION IN THIS PRESENT AGE. This is apart of God’s design/creation for humankind”. This is false. There is no scripture that states God has a plan to reconcile any apart from Christ! Stating it to be so doesn’t make it true, but dangerously close to preaching another gospel.
    And the plan that was the “ way of reconciliation being laid by God before the foundation of the world (ages) begin” is only found in Jesus! The bible says in Eph 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places IN CHRIST just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love (and then the Apostle Paul continues under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to the saints at Ephesus, faithful in Christ Jesus) having predestined us to adoption as sons BY Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will. Teaching any other way of reconciliation with God is unbiblical and heretical.
    You quote Col 1:20 to say that God will reconcile all things to Himself in Christ, whether in heaven or on earth, but you have to jerk that scripture out of the context of the passage to make the universalist claim. Because if you look at the preceding and following verses it is clear that it is teaching Christ’s power and redemptive work (v13-14)preeminence in all things (v15-21) and that those who are “reconciled to God” in the body of Christ death are those who continue in the faith and are not moved from the hope of the gospel as verse 22-23 clearly state. So that argument is clearly false.
    You said “I have found that some are turned off from the gospel of Christ just because of that thought” Are we then to preach that which unbelievers find “comforting”? Because a teaching of Christ is difficult for those who are unregenerate to accept, does that mean we change it? Give them something they want to hear instead? That is a sign of a false teacher, the Apostle Paul writes to Timothy 2Tim 4:2-4

    You say “In the age of judgment all others will also be corrected/judged/tried/refined/baptized by God’s fire. However, they miss out on ruling and reigning with Christ during the figurative 1000 year reign.” If this is so, how is it that Satan is going to deceive the nations and gather them for war against the saints and the judgment at the great white throne, is AFTER the 1000 year reign, in which the dead are judged according to their works along with Satan and thrown into the lake of fire forever? (Rev 20:7-14)

    In your view, after these “billions of souls are tortured for a limited time (figurative 1000 years as you say)” what happens to them after that? Do they repent of their sins? Are they then able to be with God forever? Do they then love God?

    
    
34. on October 30, 2008 at 2:53 am | Reply Jon Paden

    Servant of the King,

    You must have my position badly mistaken. For I too believe that Christ is the only way to the Father. I’m simply saying what scriptures say that All things will be subdued and subjected to Christ.

    Your understanding of God’s judgment is off. God’s judgment is righteous judgment to purify/cleanse/refine/subdue/subject. It is not everlasting torture of His enemies. This view contradicts so many scriptures!

    It seems we are starting to go in circles on this one. We may have to just agree to disagree at this time. Rom 14:5 states: …let everyone be fully convinced in their own minds.

    
    
35. on October 30, 2008 at 1:17 pm | Reply lionelwoods7

    Jon,

    Okay lets stop playing games. If Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father and Jesus says you must place faith in me in this life. Then how is it that one can be saved by going through some purification in Hell? That never placed faith in Jesus in this life and that seems to be an obvious contradiction.

    
    
36. on October 31, 2008 at 4:37 pm | Reply servantoftheKing

    Jon,

    What??? Badly mistaken your position??? With all the dialogue back and forth now you want to come up with the “I dont believe that” excuse? You teach exactly that so now when it is evidently exposed instead of answering the question, you hide behind another scripture taken out of context, one that is regarding things that are not essential to the faith in that Christians have liberty with regards to, e.i. eating and drinking, and try to apply that to this conversation on faith in Christ atoning work as the only means of salvation and the wrath of God to come?

    One thing is evident, and has been. This conversation has been going in circles, like others before me were wise enough to forsee, because just like when the false teachers or cults are confronted with the truth they run and hide behind “what their church told them” or use some illogical, or irrational method of interpreting scripture, or personal experience or bias, instead of using the reasoning and intellect God gave them to do like the Bereans….search the scriptures to see if these things are so, and rightly divide the word of truth, so you have intellectually retreated to your safety net, instead of “subjecting all things to Christ” as you say by not subjecting your teaching to His word.

    The reason I say this is obvious when you look at this thread. When you ask me to “address the problems with my understanding” every question you asked, I addressed directly, not using some obscure reference to a passage that doesnt answer the question. You wanted to play the whole aionios doesnt mean eternity game, but after I and others cited greek scholar after scholar that proved that depending on its usage it means exactly that, you have no response but try to say that the orthodox view contradicts “so many scriptures”. The only contradiction is again, in your flawed interpretation and understanding, not Gods word or the orthodox faith once for all delivered unto the saints!

    I used your words to show how you repeatedly teach another way to God apart from faith in Christ and when the conclusion becomes apparent, you try to say you dont because you understand the implications of saying that you do, that is preaching another gospel. You have used flawed reasoning, twisted scripture and flat out ducked scripture that contradicts your heretical theology.

    Finally, you antogonized others into this dialogue saying we are suppose to be helpers of one another, and a fellow brother trying to avoid error when that doesnt seem to have ever been your goal. Especially when you refuse to submit yourself to the clear teaching of Gods word because of your own personal convictions and that is sad.

    I will continue to pray that God will give you His Spirit in all wisdom, understanding and truth and that you will know Him who through the Eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God!

    In His grip for all eternity!

    
    
37. on October 31, 2008 at 6:14 pm | Reply Jon Paden

    Servant of the King,

    I forgive you in your ignorance and will be praying for you as well.