Comments on: A Few More Questions to Ponder http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/07/05/a-few-more-questions-to-ponder/ "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." Hebrews 8:6 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:18:30 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: lionelwoods7 http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/07/05/a-few-more-questions-to-ponder/#comment-1462 lionelwoods7 Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:49:35 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=329#comment-1462 Hey CJ, A few questions to add based off of your statement. 1. Does are the prophets mentioned in Epheisans 3 the same as the OT prophets? I believe these prophets would have lacked one great thing. Namely Christ (Peter says they longed to look into these things). The church is at a much greater advantage and the prophets birthed under the Church would have also been at a greater advantage having full revelation of Christ. 2. How would Barnabas had qualified? I don't know if the scriptures ever mentioning him being an eye witness, but I could be wrong. 3. Can't we say scriptually that Pastor/Teacher/Shepherd/Bishop/Elder are all synonymous? And if so couldn't we argue that the Canon also removed the need for those offices because we have become as mature as we can be based off of Ephesians 4? Those who argue that Prophets and Apostles (we can call them chuch planters today with an evangelistic missionary lifestyle) and other spiritual gifts have ceased use the canon arguement why not follow my man Derrick the Gladiator and say that the other two offices and gifts have ceased also and we are all on equal playing fields. 4. Not being sarcastic here but why do we keep calling them "pastoral" epistles? Who named them that. Timothy and Titus, as far as I can see, were not pastors or elders, they were assistants and companions of Paul that Paul sent back to different areas to help strengthen them when he couldn't (prison or in a certain geographical location and couldn't get back to them). I am always left scrathing my head when people call them elders or pastors, they were both sent to recognize (or appoint) elders not pastor churches. As far as I can read biblically (Paul tells Timothy to come to him as soon as he can, not to stay there and pastor 2 Timothy) Hey CJ,

A few questions to add based off of your statement.

1. Does are the prophets mentioned in Epheisans 3 the same as the OT prophets? I believe these prophets would have lacked one great thing. Namely Christ (Peter says they longed to look into these things). The church is at a much greater advantage and the prophets birthed under the Church would have also been at a greater advantage having full revelation of Christ.

2. How would Barnabas had qualified? I don’t know if the scriptures ever mentioning him being an eye witness, but I could be wrong.

3. Can’t we say scriptually that Pastor/Teacher/Shepherd/Bishop/Elder are all synonymous? And if so couldn’t we argue that the Canon also removed the need for those offices because we have become as mature as we can be based off of Ephesians 4? Those who argue that Prophets and Apostles (we can call them chuch planters today with an evangelistic missionary lifestyle) and other spiritual gifts have ceased use the canon arguement why not follow my man Derrick the Gladiator and say that the other two offices and gifts have ceased also and we are all on equal playing fields.

4. Not being sarcastic here but why do we keep calling them “pastoral” epistles? Who named them that. Timothy and Titus, as far as I can see, were not pastors or elders, they were assistants and companions of Paul that Paul sent back to different areas to help strengthen them when he couldn’t (prison or in a certain geographical location and couldn’t get back to them). I am always left scrathing my head when people call them elders or pastors, they were both sent to recognize (or appoint) elders not pastor churches. As far as I can read biblically (Paul tells Timothy to come to him as soon as he can, not to stay there and pastor 2 Timothy)

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By: Alan Knox http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/07/05/a-few-more-questions-to-ponder/#comment-1459 Alan Knox Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:17:31 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=329#comment-1459 Celucien, You said, "It appears to me; at least, the charismatic leadership of the early church (e.g., apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors-teachers) was gradually substituted by regulated offices (e.g., elders, bishops, deacons)." The problem with your conclusion is that elders are found in the earliest history of the church - Acts 14 and Acts 15. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that elders/deacons replace the working of the Spirit through various spiritual gifts. In fact, Paul tells Timothy not to neglect his gift (1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 1:16)... but he doesn't tell him to perform as either an elder or a deacon. I will agree that AFTER the NT was written, the work of the Spirit through individuals was gradually replaced by the work of ordained men who had special religious training. -Alan Celucien,

You said, “It appears to me; at least, the charismatic leadership of the early church (e.g., apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors-teachers) was gradually substituted by regulated offices (e.g., elders, bishops, deacons).”

The problem with your conclusion is that elders are found in the earliest history of the church – Acts 14 and Acts 15. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that elders/deacons replace the working of the Spirit through various spiritual gifts.

In fact, Paul tells Timothy not to neglect his gift (1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 1:16)… but he doesn’t tell him to perform as either an elder or a deacon.

I will agree that AFTER the NT was written, the work of the Spirit through individuals was gradually replaced by the work of ordained men who had special religious training.

-Alan

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By: Celucien Joseph http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/07/05/a-few-more-questions-to-ponder/#comment-1458 Celucien Joseph Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:10:21 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=329#comment-1458 Lionel, Thanks for your comment. It appears to me; at least, the charismatic leadership of the early church (e.g., apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors-teachers) was gradually substituted by regulated offices (e.g., elders, bishops, deacons). In the Pastoral letters for example, one find infrequent references or allusions to "variety of gifts" mentioned in I Cor. 12, but rather the stress is on the regulated "offices of the church." By consequence, I’m offering a suggestion that some of the gifts listed in the Ephesians text (4:11-13) such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers could be well equated with ecclesiastical offices. It is a little difficult to interpret 1 Cor 12:28 as simply a reference to "spiritual gifs." At least, the language there that "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers..." should not be taken lightly as simply a reference to “grace-gifts”. Notice here, "healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues are among the spiritual gifts given to the church (1 Cor 12:28b). Moreover, the text of Eph 2:20 affirms that "...the household of God [the assembly] was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets..." Apostles- Moreover, Apostles, in the NT, means one who has been sent. The term is used in reference to the Twelve disciples, and of others associated with particular churches (2 Cor. 8.23; Phil. 2:25), and eventually to all Christian (John 13:16). Interestingly and contextually, in the early Christian assemblies, there were some criteria/qualifications determining one's apostleship, at least two, (1) Have seen the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 9.1, 2), and (2) Have been a witness of his resurrection (Acts 1.21-23). Prophets- In the Old Testament, a prophet was an office associating with prophetic utterance. In conclusion, it seems to me that apostles, pastors-teachers, and prophets could be classified respectively as ecclesiastical graciously-gifted offices. Lionel,

Thanks for your comment.

It appears to me; at least, the charismatic leadership of the early church (e.g., apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors-teachers) was gradually substituted by regulated offices (e.g., elders, bishops, deacons). In the Pastoral letters for example, one find infrequent references or allusions to “variety of gifts” mentioned in I Cor. 12, but rather the stress is on the regulated “offices of the church.” By consequence, I’m offering a suggestion that some of the gifts listed in the Ephesians text (4:11-13) such as apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers could be well equated with ecclesiastical offices.

It is a little difficult to interpret 1 Cor 12:28 as simply a reference to “spiritual gifs.” At least, the language there that “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…” should not be taken lightly as simply a reference to “grace-gifts”. Notice here, “healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues are among the spiritual gifts given to the church (1 Cor 12:28b). Moreover, the text of Eph 2:20 affirms that “…the household of God [the assembly] was built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets…”

Apostles-
Moreover, Apostles, in the NT, means one who has been sent. The term is used in reference to the Twelve disciples, and of others associated with particular churches (2 Cor. 8.23; Phil. 2:25), and eventually to all Christian (John 13:16). Interestingly and contextually, in the early Christian assemblies, there were some criteria/qualifications determining one’s apostleship, at least two, (1) Have seen the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 9.1, 2), and (2) Have been a witness of his resurrection (Acts 1.21-23).

Prophets-
In the Old Testament, a prophet was an office associating with prophetic utterance.

In conclusion, it seems to me that apostles, pastors-teachers, and prophets could be classified respectively as ecclesiastical graciously-gifted offices.

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By: DTG aka love me or hate me http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/07/05/a-few-more-questions-to-ponder/#comment-1448 DTG aka love me or hate me Sun, 06 Jul 2008 06:16:34 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=329#comment-1448 Hey LionelWoods7 great answer to Ron should we wait for the answer, I'll wait to see what he says. Hey LionelWoods7 great answer to Ron should we wait for the answer, I’ll wait to see what he says.

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By: lionelwoods7 http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/07/05/a-few-more-questions-to-ponder/#comment-1443 lionelwoods7 Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:26:58 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=329#comment-1443 Hey Alan I also believe you are right as verse 16 flows directly with 1 Cor 12. Hey Alan I also believe you are right as verse 16 flows directly with 1 Cor 12.

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