‘But I do believe we can communicate who God is in ways that exalt His holiness but also communicates in the language and culture of the hearer.’

Amen …

We agree – just on where to draw the parameters of contextualising / adapting to sub cultural norms may be different.

On one level there is Christian liberty and I suppose there will always be some differences between believers on what is reverent / irreverent. But again as I stated previously I wonder how much of this is driven by our culture’s descent into informality which we import into our approaching God (and all you say about approaching God with boldness because of Christ’s work I accept as a given).

But, I still think if we come together as God’s people under the word, we can work this out – as you say in your last paragraph, you have clearly drawn some parameters yourself – why there, why are those things wrong ?

As for 1 Cor 9 v 20 ‘To the Jew I became a Jew’ has been used to justify everything imaginable, cowboy churches, hula worship, hip hop churches … whilst we may in outreach adapt our conversation and argumentation, I question whether Paul actually became a Jew or a Gentile, or set up separate churches for them in the course of his outreach.

As a side point, I have also had some interaction with Christian Hip Hop here in the UK and have also heard some of the responses from street level guys to it – and whilst it would not be put it in this way, ‘overcontextualisation’ (trying to hard) is one of the critiques of the scene, in which I include overmuch use of slang and the keeping of street names from their previous lives … I think this links into these (the rappers) doing their own thing and not working it out with mature believers under the Word.

Believe it or not I occasionally play bits of hip hop to the young people I work with to emphasize a point (I have even used Flame’s ‘God’s goodness should lead men to repentance’). But I would be very careful about what I use, firstly for my own conscience and secondly with this over use of the slang, they would laugh at)

Thanks for the conversation

Colin

1. I agree with your first point but that had to do with Christ speaking in parables in order to keep the blind pharisees blind. That is a whole nother post there.

2. I understand their are better and worse ways, but the Jews thought Paul’s way was bad (1 Cor 9). I am saying who sets the standard on what is bad and what is not. What are our parameters if I must ask? I believe we speak the language of the culture while at the same time not infringing upon the Gospel nor the nature of God. But I will let you answer the parameter question.

3. What would you consider revering or not revering? That is the big question. To you it may be slang, to some it is not bowing your head in prayer, to the next person it is not wearing shorts to the gathering, for some it is using drums in worship. Where is the line drawn? I must say it is has to be the bible and then that leads to where is the line there? What does is mean when Paul says “to the Jew I became a Jew……”

4. What I am saying now is we approach God with boldness through Christ. You see we are not like Israel “when they saw Moses” but we “with unveiled faces” approach God as a loving Father who will do us NO HARM and as a loving Dad we can come as His children expecting nothing but His divine favor or divine discipline but either will always be out of Love and not wrath. We don’t have to shrink away as those who were under the Old Covenant (2 Corinthians 3) the writer of Hebrews says “we have come to the Mount of Zion” not the Mount of “Siani” we can approach God with loving expectations.

I do understand your reverence and I would abstain from homeboy t-shirts, calling Jesus my roll dog, and things of that nature because the word friend may not allow such a thing. But I do believe we can communicate who God is in ways that exalt His holiness but also communicates in the language and culture of the hearer. I appreciate the interaction.

Thats fine …

1. In what language does God communicate? The Highest or Lowest denominator?

I’m not sure I would use those ways to describe God’s communication. But the point is that God communicates in a way that his people can understand, but also when we look in the gospels in ways that others couldn’t understand, see the parables, which I think explains why I wouldn’t describe how God communicates in that way..

2. In which ways should I communicate the gospel to the listeners? In their language or mine? For example. If I were to go to Africa could I use word pictures or something they are familiar with to communicate the Gospel while not infringing upon the nature and the holiness of God?

I think your point here underlines my concerns. When you seek to contextualise the communication of the gospel there are better and worse ways to do it. There may be ways which whilst seemingly being effective actually bring up problems further along, which do infringe on our communication of the nature and holiness of God.

3. Do you believe most who flee to Islam or some other religion do it because we use slang or because the church has been horrible in the areas of evangelism, manhood, and discipleship? I would argue for the latter.

No, my point about Islam was not to suggest people convert because we use slang !!!

As in my last answer my point was that whilst we may feel we are doing something that is helpful … actually we may be placing stumbling blocks to others – again giving ammunition to those who say Christians have no respect and reverence for God.

4. Finally what is too far? For example Flame says “our God is a beast” one writer of the Bible says “He is a consuming Fire”.

That is a very good question – in looking at how this is done we need to hold in balance various teachings of scripture, such as, how we approach God – if God ‘is a consuming fire’ – is this not with respect and honour. Whilst some may express this in slang, if that is where they are at in terms of maturity and understanding, that may be understandable but does not at least some of the desire to use slang come from society’s drive to informality rather than looking at how those in scripture approach God.

Where I find the ‘daddy’ approach unhelpful is that it is often placed in today’s parent – child context of utter informality in an age when it is not uncommon for parents to want to be friends with their children rather than parents. The ‘daddy’ term in scripture (abba) was intimate but was coupled with deep respect and reverence.

I think my primary objection to describing God ‘as a beast’, is that whilst it may have connotations of being incomparable, in it’s popular use it has other connotations of having form and is used in comparing sin and sinful behaviour.

Colin

I appreciate the comments and the chance to interact with you. So let me pose a few questions.

1. In what language does God communicate? The Highest or Lowest denominator?

2. In which ways should I communicate the gospel to the listeners? In their language or mine? For example. If I were to go to Africa could I use word pictures or something they are familiar with to communicate the Gospel while not infringing upon the nature and the holiness of God?

3. Do you believe most who flee to Islam or some other religion do it because we use slang or because the church has been horrible in the areas of evangelism, manhood, and discipleship? I would argue for the latter.

4. Finally what is too far? For example Flame says “our God is a beast” one writer of the Bible says “He is a consuming Fire”.

These are serious questions, I can also get into the daddy thing being biblical (Galatians 4 comes to mind)

I thought it meant something like that .. but when it is used in connection with God (which is not it’s usual street usage), do we demean Him not only among our own people, but also among some of those we are seeking to reach ?

This reminds a me of the craze a few years back to refer to God as daddy …

I know in the States there are people from a church background converting to Islam in the cities (we have the same thing here in the UK, and it troubles me greatly)- one of the reasons which I feel contributes to this is the low view Christians have of God (particularly in the churches you mention belonging to Dollar et al). When our people use slang applied to God, to my mind can play to this critique by the Muslims of us, that we speak so lightly of God ??? and I am not for one second saying we do not equally stress his love, grace and nearness.

When I listen to some of the ‘holyhiphoppers’ I do get a sense they do sometimes ‘try a bit too hard’ when using the slang, to a point where it can sound inauthentic, but also irreligious .. (and this I would not usually apply to Flame)

There is obviously a balance to be sought, but sometimes it does seem they go a bit too far …

And I’m not anti the music by any stretch. I grew up on Hip Hop from the early 80s through PE, Big Daddy Kane, KRS1 (I even saw him in concert once), but stopped listening about 92. I got back into it via Shai Linne et al. To be honest musically I don’t listen to much else.

Colin