Absolutely Mr. Horton, but the reality is (and I think that Christglory hit on it a ‘lil) while there are varied interpretations there is only one Truth. It is factual that the Disciples did NOT teach premill, postmill, amill and preterism all as viable eschatological positions, for the first century church.

So back to the original question about Preterism being heresy. I only know about Preterism based on reading opposing viewpoints about it. So I’m not definitively capable of saying it is or that it isn’t, because I’ve not examined its tenets that deeply.

I do know this, everyone claims to have the “truth” but you’ll NEVER have the Truth if you aren’t willing to fight for it!

-Selah

I Ain’t Nobody!

GOOD POST MY FRIEND.

Preterism was not taught during the days of the Apostles, because the time of Daneil’s end had not yet come. Daniel’s end was about the end of his people, and city, not about the end of the world as we see so many teachers teaching at church, or on television. On the contrary, the Bible speaks of the wold enduring forever. Some mistakenly interpret Peter’s “elements” burning in the fire as the molecules of heaven and earth. But the word there is not molecular structure, but teachings, rudiments, or ways of doing things. Hebrews chapter 6 uses the same Greek word as does Peter. In that paragraph, the author of Hebrews states, “Let us lay aside the “elementary” teachings of the Christ, about washings, laying on of hands, and eternal judgment….”

Here the author of Hebrews was talking about the early instructions about salvation, and he’s encouraging them to forget about the beginning, and press on towards the finish line.

In the same way, Peter wasn’t talking about the Heaven and earth (elements) being destroyed by fire, but their teachings, specifically, the Jewish way of worship, i.e the physical temple, the animal sacrifices, the ceremonial cleansing, fasting, Sabbath days, and new moon feasts. All of those things were a picture of what was to come, and not the reality of divine worship.

What they were awaiting was the destruction of the city, and the temple, as Christ speaks about in Matthew 24. Jesus tells them that the temple would be destroyed, and they wanted to know the sign of when this was going to happen. Everything He mentioned to them came true in the mid 60’s AD, and was completed around 70-71 AD. The first sign was whey they saw the abomination that was similar to the days of Antiochus IV, who surrounded the temple and desecrated the sanctuary. Antiochus IV was a picture of what would happen in 70AD, when the Romans surrounded the temple, and stole all the treasures within the temple. This spawned a fight between them and the Jews, and although General Titus didn’t want to destroy the temple, an accident occurred during the struggle, and the temple caught fire, eventually spreading to the entire city. The end resulted in more than 1,100,000 Jews either taken captive into slavery (later killed in the newly erected Roman Arena), or nailed to built crosses by the thousands.

Futurism (in my opinion) found its birth with early fathers such as Papias, and Iranaeus. However, both have flawed writings, although little is known about Papias, except by what Iraenaeus quotes from him. And seeing both of their writings contained many known errors, easily shown to be wrong, how reliable can their eschatology be?

Iraenaues claimed that Christ died at the age of 50 years old (we believe he was more about 32). He also stated that Christ lived at the age of each person being saved, so that His authorship would be more perfect, i.e. young for young, adult for adult, and elder for elder.

Papias taught that Christ would return and rule the earth for 1000 years, and literal fruits would grow and nourish mankind during this time. But another Early Church Father, in the 2nd century (same time as Papias and Iraenaeus) basically considered the two above to be in error. This was Clement of Rome. Preterism has its beginning in the 2nd century, based on what I’ve discovered, but there were also Futurist teachers of different caliber. Futurism eventually became Historcist (to some degree) around the 4rth century and would later be changed around the 14th century. Finally, Futuristism took a dramatic turn in the 18th century, by a British female (name forgotten), and that eschatology became what we now see in America, though much more dramatized. Preterism was known as far back as the 2nd century, and would flourish again around the 14th century.

The details are a bit vague, but this would be a great discussion.

Come see us at the Biblewheel.com forum. I promise you’ll enjoy a great discussion.

Joe

Here’s a link: http://biblewheel.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=18

This link will take you directly to the forum where we debate preterism, and other “ism’s” taught since the beginning.

Just a quick comment on Acts chapter one. The problem comes form the Greek word “Houto”, which some English Bibles translate as “SO”. The more direct interpretation is the phrase, “In Like Manner” or “similarly”. We are discussing this very issue within the BibleWheel forum. Here’s short portion:

In like manner (houto)

Matt. 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so (houto) shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Luke 11:30 “For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so (houto) shall also the Son of man be to this generation.”

John 3:16 “For God so (houto) loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Acts 1:11 “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so (houto) come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

Rom. 11:26 “And so (houto) all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

Eph. 5:24 “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so (houto) let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

Col. 3:13 “Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so (houto) also do ye.”

James 1:11 “For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so (houto) also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.”

11 Peter 1:11 “For so (houto) an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

The best example I can give is the misinterpretation of John 3:16. We interpret the Greek word “Houto” as “amount”, and is “So much”……FOR GOD SO (MUCH) LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON….

The text is not telling us how much God loved the world, but rather is contrasting how Moses lifted up the serpent. Here’s the text with the correct translation of the Greek word “Houto”:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God [similarly] loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

So in Acts chapter 1, the Apostles beheld Jesus vanishing behind a cloud. The Angel tells them that Jesus would return [similarly, or in-like-manner] in clouds.

Now, reading the Old testament, there are a few passages that speak of God coming in clouds of judgment. There is your likeness.

I’d like to invite all of you to join in this discussion. Now before you write a Preterist off as heretical, at least offer a good defense in doing so. The scriptures are filled with metaphoric expressions, and that is how God primarily communicated His message to the prophets, nearly always speaking in parables.

And yes, Revelation is a done deal….all fulfilled. Here are a few things you need to understand before you can understand Revelation.

SYMBOLS:

Sea – Gentiles
Land – Israel/Jerusalem
Beast – Evil Empire
Head – King
Hills – governments
horns – additional provincial kings
Babylon – Jerusalem (or Rome depending on your view)
Pillar – Church Leader/Priest/Elder/Important Person
Stone – Solid Christian
Jewel – Purified Christian
Pearls – Apostles

Now here’s a critical question for you. If the Beast of Revelation is not literal, why should his mark be? Are Christian’s literally marked with the seal of God? By no means! Then why would the lost be literally marked by a non-literal Beast? Think wisely friends, and I hope to see you all at the Biblewheel forum.

Come join us my friends, and let us sharpen our swords, in peace.

Joe

Absolutely Mr. Horton, but the reality is (and I think that Christglory hit on it a ‘lil) while there are varied interpretations there is only one Truth. It is factual that the Disciples did NOT teach premill, postmill, amill and preterism all as viable eschatological positions, for the first century church.

So back to the original question about Preterism being heresy. I only know about Preterism based on reading opposing viewpoints about it. So I’m not definitively capable of saying it is or that it isn’t, because I’ve not examined its tenets that deeply.

I do know this, everyone claims to have the “truth” but you’ll NEVER have the Truth if you aren’t willing to fight for it!

-Selah

I Ain’t Nobody!

Question:
Was the first century churches eschatology presented as an all inclusive teaching of premill, postmill, amill and preterism? In other words, did the Disciples present or teach that Believers could each personally hold to one the aforementioned isms?

I Ain’t Nobody?