Comments on: What Does a Lamborghini With No Engine Have in Common With the Gospel? http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/02/08/what-does-a-lamborghini-with-no-engine-have-in-common-with-the-gospel/ "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." Hebrews 8:6 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:18:30 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Henry http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/02/08/what-does-a-lamborghini-with-no-engine-have-in-common-with-the-gospel/#comment-1301 Henry Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:46:34 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=93#comment-1301 It's Datsun, not Dotson, you typical stupid Christian. It’s Datsun, not Dotson, you typical stupid Christian.

]]> By: Mr. Horton Sr. http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/02/08/what-does-a-lamborghini-with-no-engine-have-in-common-with-the-gospel/#comment-343 Mr. Horton Sr. Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:46:01 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=93#comment-343 Wow this has gotten serious. Wish i could have got in to this earlier to add some input but it looks as if all has already been said. Honestly Lionel I think where you are coming from could not be more accurate. Most people have not delved into the common misconceptions of the so called "moral law" which has no biblical grounding whatsoever. For those of you who think what Lionel is saying sounds a bit far fetched I recommend 2 books if Lionel has not already. Abraham's Four Seeds by John G Reisinger(which is a Biblical examination of the presuppositions of Covenant Theology and Dispensationslism) & Tablets of Stone and the History of Redemption also by John G Reisinger. This will close the deal for many of you on this topic especially the second one mentioned-God Bless in Christ Wow this has gotten serious. Wish i could have got in to this earlier to add some input but it looks as if all has already been said. Honestly Lionel I think where you are coming from could not be more accurate. Most people have not delved into the common misconceptions of the so called “moral law” which has no biblical grounding whatsoever. For those of you who think what Lionel is saying sounds a bit far fetched I recommend 2 books if Lionel has not already. Abraham’s Four Seeds by John G Reisinger(which is a Biblical examination of the presuppositions of Covenant Theology and Dispensationslism) & Tablets of Stone and the History of Redemption also by John G Reisinger. This will close the deal for many of you on this topic especially the second one mentioned-God Bless in Christ

]]> By: lionelwoods7 http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/02/08/what-does-a-lamborghini-with-no-engine-have-in-common-with-the-gospel/#comment-341 lionelwoods7 Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:04:42 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=93#comment-341 SJ we have agreed on a bunch but we will have our first disagreement here. I will repost this to ensure you understand where I am coming from Hey Brother C I love conversing with you and Lawrence brother. You guys don’t understand how you have sharpened me. Let me answer your first objection: Furthermore, Paul is speaking to the churches in Galatia, they were Gentiles. They did not have the Law. But Paul finds it necessary to bring it up to a people who were outside of it (just as we are). In doing so he gives a foundation for understanding for Christianity The reason Paul brings up the Law to the Galatians believers is because they were now thinking about (some actually were) going to it to be justified, because of the Judaizers. Paul didn’t initiate the “law” conversation they did by being persuaded to be circumscied by the Juadizers. Next you said: My only contention is that we see that Christ did send the Law (for how else would we know what sin is). The Law simply draws the line so that we can recognize what we need to stay away from. I don’t agree with this. Not the least bit. The Law was given as a “Covenant Document” and was placed in the Ark for the Hebrews. It was a conditional covenant for them to possess the Land. Here we go in Deut 28 it is long but worth it: 28:1 “And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. 3 Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 5 Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 6 Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out. 7 “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before you. They shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways. 8 The Lord will command the blessing on you in your barns and in all that you undertake. And he will bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. 9 The Lord will establish you as a people holy to himself, as he has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in his ways. 10 And all the peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you his good treasury, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hands. And you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you shall only go up and not down, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, being careful to do them, 14 and if you do not turn aside from any of the words that I command you today, to the right hand or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. This law was never given to gentiles and they could not get any promises by following it and no curses by not following it. Let me give you the first introduction of the Law in Exodus 19: 19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness. There Israel encamped before the mountain, 3 while Moses went up to God. The Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.” Then finally lets look at Exodus 24: 24:1 Then he said to Moses, “Come up to the Lord, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and worship from afar. 2 Moses alone shall come near to the Lord, but the others shall not come near, and the people shall not come up with him.” 3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do.” 4 And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.” 9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” 13 So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. 14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.” Now I have to ask you brother C. Was the Law given so that people could identify what was an obey or was the Law a conditional covenant give to the people of Israel for a specific purpose? What if the Gentiles in the boarding countries followed this Law would God give them “land to possess” and promise to destroy their enemies? The answer should be no. Just like you over hear me making a business deal with my neighbor. If we agreed to him doing my lawn for $50 and then you overheard that and came and cut my grass and invoiced me am I obligate to pay? No, because the covenant (agreement) wasn’t between you and I it was between me and my neighbor. Let me know what you think bro. Sorry for all of the verses. SJ, The Law was a legal covenant document between Israel and God, and has no bearing on the Christian or non-Christian for that matter. It is the Law of Christ brother. SJ we have agreed on a bunch but we will have our first disagreement here. I will repost this to ensure you understand where I am coming from

Hey Brother C I love conversing with you and Lawrence brother. You guys don’t understand how you have sharpened me. Let me answer your first objection:

Furthermore, Paul is speaking to the churches in Galatia, they were Gentiles. They did not have the Law. But Paul finds it necessary to bring it up to a people who were outside of it (just as we are). In doing so he gives a foundation for understanding for Christianity

The reason Paul brings up the Law to the Galatians believers is because they were now thinking about (some actually were) going to it to be justified, because of the Judaizers. Paul didn’t initiate the “law” conversation they did by being persuaded to be circumscied by the Juadizers.

Next you said:

My only contention is that we see that Christ did send the Law (for how else would we know what sin is). The Law simply draws the line so that we can recognize what we need to stay away from.

I don’t agree with this. Not the least bit. The Law was given as a “Covenant Document” and was placed in the Ark for the Hebrews. It was a conditional covenant for them to possess the Land. Here we go in Deut 28 it is long but worth it:

28:1 “And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. 3 Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 5 Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 6 Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out. 7 “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before you. They shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways. 8 The Lord will command the blessing on you in your barns and in all that you undertake. And he will bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. 9 The Lord will establish you as a people holy to himself, as he has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord your God and walk in his ways. 10 And all the peoples of the earth shall see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they shall be afraid of you. 11 And the Lord will make you abound in prosperity, in the fruit of your womb and in the fruit of your livestock and in the fruit of your ground, within the land that the Lord swore to your fathers to give you. 12 The Lord will open to you his good treasury, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hands. And you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13 And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you shall only go up and not down, if you obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you today, being careful to do them, 14 and if you do not turn aside from any of the words that I command you today, to the right hand or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. 15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. 19 Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.

This law was never given to gentiles and they could not get any promises by following it and no curses by not following it. Let me give you the first introduction of the Law in Exodus 19:

19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness. There Israel encamped before the mountain, 3 while Moses went up to God. The Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.”

Then finally lets look at Exodus 24:

24:1 Then he said to Moses, “Come up to the Lord, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and worship from afar. 2 Moses alone shall come near to the Lord, but the others shall not come near, and the people shall not come up with him.” 3 Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do.” 4 And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. 6 And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” 8 And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.” 9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.” 13 So Moses rose with his assistant Joshua, and Moses went up into the mountain of God. 14 And he said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we return to you. And behold, Aaron and Hur are with you. Whoever has a dispute, let him go to them.”

Now I have to ask you brother C. Was the Law given so that people could identify what was an obey or was the Law a conditional covenant give to the people of Israel for a specific purpose? What if the Gentiles in the boarding countries followed this Law would God give them “land to possess” and promise to destroy their enemies? The answer should be no. Just like you over hear me making a business deal with my neighbor. If we agreed to him doing my lawn for $50 and then you overheard that and came and cut my grass and invoiced me am I obligate to pay? No, because the covenant (agreement) wasn’t between you and I it was between me and my neighbor.

Let me know what you think bro. Sorry for all of the verses.

SJ,

The Law was a legal covenant document between Israel and God, and has no bearing on the Christian or non-Christian for that matter. It is the Law of Christ brother.

]]> By: lionelwoods7 http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/02/08/what-does-a-lamborghini-with-no-engine-have-in-common-with-the-gospel/#comment-340 lionelwoods7 Mon, 11 Feb 2008 22:00:47 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=93#comment-340 Hey Gabriel. I don't feel trapped. What I am saying is that I don't know who is elect and who is not and Word of Faith and Mormonism are two extremes. If a Mormon denies the tenets of Christian Doctrine then maybe they are elect but as for now they are not saved. We don't know who is elect and who isn't. However, to deny Christian doctrine is to deny Christ it is his doctrine. We who hold to election don't believe that any of the elect will refuse to accept essential Christian doctrine bro. There may be some confusion there. Word of Faith yes, Cult no! Hey Gabriel. I don’t feel trapped.

What I am saying is that I don’t know who is elect and who is not and Word of Faith and Mormonism are two extremes. If a Mormon denies the tenets of Christian Doctrine then maybe they are elect but as for now they are not saved. We don’t know who is elect and who isn’t. However, to deny Christian doctrine is to deny Christ it is his doctrine. We who hold to election don’t believe that any of the elect will refuse to accept essential Christian doctrine bro. There may be some confusion there. Word of Faith yes, Cult no!

]]> By: Gabriel http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/02/08/what-does-a-lamborghini-with-no-engine-have-in-common-with-the-gospel/#comment-339 Gabriel Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:23:42 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=93#comment-339 To give more basis as to where I'm trying to come from, As Brother Matt Slick said at CARM, "Finally, I believe that there are truly regenerate Christians in the Roman Catholic church. But, they are truly Christians in spite of official RCC theology and in spite of the ritualistic offerings of this ancient church which has had too many hands meddling in it through the centuries, gradually moving it away from orthodoxy and into apostasy. Yes, apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity" For more reference, http://www.gotquestions.org/catholicism.html To give more basis as to where I’m trying to come from,

As Brother Matt Slick said at CARM, “Finally, I believe that there are truly regenerate Christians in the Roman Catholic church. But, they are truly Christians in spite of official RCC theology and in spite of the ritualistic offerings of this ancient church which has had too many hands meddling in it through the centuries, gradually moving it away from orthodoxy and into apostasy. Yes, apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity”

For more reference,
http://www.gotquestions.org/catholicism.html

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