Comments on: So You Want a Diverse Church? Be a Catalyst Then! http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/01/25/so-you-want-a-diverse-church-be-a-catalyst-then/ "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises." Hebrews 8:6 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:18:30 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Steven http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/01/25/so-you-want-a-diverse-church-be-a-catalyst-then/#comment-4996 Steven Sat, 13 Dec 2008 00:22:42 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-4996 Lionel, Maybe God is calling you to start a racially diverse Reformed Church? I see the need for this and it is my desire one day to do just that. A Reformed Church with a Charismatic twist. Preaching the Doctrines of Grace, Worship with a Hammond B3 and a Choir :) where raising your hand does not mean you have a question, and yes definitely small groups. I come from a Mega Church and it is a disaster as far as community and fellowship. People are just a number in the crowd because they have no small groups. I agree with you that in order for a church to open up to people of black or hispanic decent they need to change their format of worship. I am white and cannot handle the hokey white music of most reformed churches. If these churches that say they really want to open up to people of color are not willing to make these changes then they are just talking out of the side of their mouth. Pray and ask God if you are the one to make the change by planting a church. There are some good training programs likes Acts 29, and Redeemer Church Planting in NYC. If God is stirring you maybe you are the man to do it? Lionel,

Maybe God is calling you to start a racially diverse Reformed Church? I see the need for this and it is my desire one day to do just that. A Reformed Church with a Charismatic twist. Preaching the Doctrines of Grace, Worship with a Hammond B3 and a Choir :) where raising your hand does not mean you have a question, and yes definitely small groups. I come from a Mega Church and it is a disaster as far as community and fellowship. People are just a number in the crowd because they have no small groups. I agree with you that in order for a church to open up to people of black or hispanic decent they need to change their format of worship. I am white and cannot handle the hokey white music of most reformed churches.

If these churches that say they really want to open up to people of color are not willing to make these changes then they are just talking out of the side of their mouth.

Pray and ask God if you are the one to make the change by planting a church. There are some good training programs likes Acts 29, and Redeemer Church Planting in NYC. If God is stirring you maybe you are the man to do it?

]]> By: Scott http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/01/25/so-you-want-a-diverse-church-be-a-catalyst-then/#comment-1015 Scott Sun, 27 Apr 2008 05:19:41 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-1015 OK ladies and gentlemen, here's a good one for ya. I am a white guy raised on a farm in Whiteyville, PA. (NO, that's not the real name of the town!!). We had one black student that went to our high school but he was adopted by a white family and everybody loved him. When I was 17 and getting ready to join the Army I asked my grandfather, who was an Army vet from World War II, if he had any advice for me before I went to boot camp and all he said was, "Watch your back for the ni@@ers". I was speechless and dumfounded. We had no blacks in our small town and I didn't know what he meant so I asked him to explain. He said, "You'll see when you get to boot camp". Well, needless to say, I wasn't afraid but I've always been quiet and observant so I decided to keep my mouth shut like normal and observe and maybe I would see what my grandfather meant. Here's what I learned: there are "low lifes" in every race. My next door room mates were 2 young black men that I grew especially close to. I've never been the type to say that I'm going to set out to make a black friend or a Mexican friend or any kind of friend. Hopefully I'll make a new friend today but I don't care where they come from!! I can honestly say that I do not understand racism. I don't!!! I've tried and I've listened to the arguments and none of them hold water. Especially to those of us who call ourselves parts of the Body of Christ! I'm not dumb though. I realize racism is alive and well and have to adjust accordingly. I met my wife while we were both in the Army...it was lust at first sight. She just happened to be black. Being shy, I didn't approach her but I let a couple of my friends know that I thought she was hot (this was before either of us was saved, by the way). I knew some big mouth would leak the secret and I wanted to see her reaction to the news before I made a move. Well, it turns out that her response was, "If he likes me why doesn't he come tell me?" My limited knowledge of race-relations led me to believe that the Army forces us to live together and work together but if we were given the freedom to choose we would most likely assimilate to our own kinds. So even though I was attracted to her for some reason I never thought in a million years that the feelings would reciprocate. Long story short, we've been married for 16 years now and have 3 great kids. It's been challenging in certain aspects but we both said from the get go that we weren't getting married to please anyone but ourselves, so if things got rough due to outside interference or disapproval we wouldn't let it affect us. We've had a lot of rude, weird and some funny(picture a long haired 300 pound white guy with tattoos and piercings who listens to heavy metal and a petite, conservative 11o pound black woman who likes jazz/r&b walking in the mall holding hands and having a good time!! I won't tell you how funny some of the stares were or how rude some of the comments were!). We've had many instances since we've known each other. All of them seemed to make our bond stronger. I love my wife and she loves me and now we both love our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! The challenge is finding a church where we both feel at home. And I mean a challenge. I sympathize with you Lionel. We felt that we both were left with the same 2 choices you were left with. We could go to a culturally diverse church...if we could find one. And if we did find one the theology did not match up with what we believed the Bible said. So we tried a black AME church. Wow!!! As soon as we stepped foot into that church it's like the record scratched and everything got silent and all eyes were on me. Not one person said hi to us or welcomed us and halfway through the sermon the pastor actually said something about the "white devil". My wife grabbed me by the hand and took me to the car. I didn't even know what he meant but my wife gave me a lesson on the ride home. That was pretty gutsy of the pastor, I'll give him that!! So then we headed to the other side of the railroad tracks and tried the white baptist church in Whiteytown. Same thing...no preaching about any racial stuff but kids were staring at us and mothers were holding them just a little closer than normal. We were thoroughly disgusted with both churches. Our goal was to find a good doctrinally sound diverse church. HA HA!! I don't play the lottery and I'd still have better chances of winning it than finding that church. I asked our current pastor before we started going to his church about diversity. He said, "I'd love to have diversity. We're dying to have diversity. We used to have 3 black couples but they don't come anymore." That should have been clue #1. But we decided to go and try it. The dilemma is this: how do you have diversity in the church if the church is geared toward only meeting one demographic's needs? Neither my wife nor I are big fans of country music or rap (sorry, Lionel!!). But the music is lame, for lack of a better word. My wife has always been called a sellout because she married a white guy and talks white and has her head in the clouds, blah, blah, blah...but we went to the pastor and said, "You know if you want diversity you have to BE diverse." He said, "What do you mean?" We said, "OK, if you want to have diversity you have to change some things to accommodate diversity. Take the music for example-do we always have to sing songs that sound like funeral marches or could we once in a while sing a Kirk Franklin song or a Mary Mary song?" He got visibly upset and said, "Look, I understand you're black and everything but if you think you're going to come up in here and change the way we do things and turn this into some hip hop party it ain't gonna happen!" Needless to say we don't go there anymore, either! They want diversity but they want it on their own terms. So we have agreed, for now, that what is most important is doctrine. Since we could not find any Reformed black churches within 80 miles we are looking for a Reformed white church which puts us right back at square one-my wife and kids (and me) feel out of place. The only thing I can hope for is what a local Reformed Presbyterian church is doing: recognizing that there is a diversity problem and training someone to be sent out to change it. They have a black pastor who has gone into the city to lead a congregation in Reformed doctrines specifically aimed at the African-American city population. Along the way, they are hoping that by default some white people (and other races) will attend as well and they can springboard into diversity. I will help that cause as much as I can. I don't think that we have to lose our individual identities to be a diverse Body. I appreciate and respect differences and I know there's got to be some other people who feel the same way. Honestly, I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but to be diverse you have to give something of yourself and if you're too lazy or not willing to do that than you can understand why it doesn't successfully happen too often. It's sad to me. If there is one place in the entire world that people should be able to embrace each other and love each other it should be in Christ's Body. What could that kind of unity testify to the world?! I think that above all, if you feel led to start a diverse church than you need to be praying that God would lead diverse people to you. If everything done should be to and for the glory of God than our motives for wanting diversity should be to glorify Him, not to be the first successfully diverse church so we can brag about it. And people need to be real. Come as you are, so to speak. Don't change to try to morph into a congregation. If they can't accept you or don't want you then don't feel pressure to stay (unless you feel God's leading you to stay). Galatians 3:28 will be a reality. Whether it will happen here or in eternity is up to God's will and our obedience to follow that will no matter what inconveniences or compromises we may have to make to bring it about in our lifetime. I think the government has forced society to assimilate. But people were forced to do that. With each new generation I think racism gets a little better. But what about a Body of people that wants to be in community together? That takes true love: God's love! OK ladies and gentlemen, here’s a good one for ya. I am a white guy raised on a farm in Whiteyville, PA. (NO, that’s not the real name of the town!!). We had one black student that went to our high school but he was adopted by a white family and everybody loved him. When I was 17 and getting ready to join the Army I asked my grandfather, who was an Army vet from World War II, if he had any advice for me before I went to boot camp and all he said was, “Watch your back for the ni@@ers”. I was speechless and dumfounded. We had no blacks in our small town and I didn’t know what he meant so I asked him to explain. He said, “You’ll see when you get to boot camp”. Well, needless to say, I wasn’t afraid but I’ve always been quiet and observant so I decided to keep my mouth shut like normal and observe and maybe I would see what my grandfather meant. Here’s what I learned: there are “low lifes” in every race. My next door room mates were 2 young black men that I grew especially close to. I’ve never been the type to say that I’m going to set out to make a black friend or a Mexican friend or any kind of friend. Hopefully I’ll make a new friend today but I don’t care where they come from!! I can honestly say that I do not understand racism. I don’t!!! I’ve tried and I’ve listened to the arguments and none of them hold water. Especially to those of us who call ourselves parts of the Body of Christ! I’m not dumb though. I realize racism is alive and well and have to adjust accordingly. I met my wife while we were both in the Army…it was lust at first sight. She just happened to be black. Being shy, I didn’t approach her but I let a couple of my friends know that I thought she was hot (this was before either of us was saved, by the way). I knew some big mouth would leak the secret and I wanted to see her reaction to the news before I made a move. Well, it turns out that her response was, “If he likes me why doesn’t he come tell me?” My limited knowledge of race-relations led me to believe that the Army forces us to live together and work together but if we were given the freedom to choose we would most likely assimilate to our own kinds. So even though I was attracted to her for some reason I never thought in a million years that the feelings would reciprocate. Long story short, we’ve been married for 16 years now and have 3 great kids. It’s been challenging in certain aspects but we both said from the get go that we weren’t getting married to please anyone but ourselves, so if things got rough due to outside interference or disapproval we wouldn’t let it affect us. We’ve had a lot of rude, weird and some funny(picture a long haired 300 pound white guy with tattoos and piercings who listens to heavy metal and a petite, conservative 11o pound black woman who likes jazz/r&b walking in the mall holding hands and having a good time!! I won’t tell you how funny some of the stares were or how rude some of the comments were!). We’ve had many instances since we’ve known each other. All of them seemed to make our bond stronger. I love my wife and she loves me and now we both love our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! The challenge is finding a church where we both feel at home. And I mean a challenge. I sympathize with you Lionel. We felt that we both were left with the same 2 choices you were left with. We could go to a culturally diverse church…if we could find one. And if we did find one the theology did not match up with what we believed the Bible said. So we tried a black AME church. Wow!!! As soon as we stepped foot into that church it’s like the record scratched and everything got silent and all eyes were on me. Not one person said hi to us or welcomed us and halfway through the sermon the pastor actually said something about the “white devil”. My wife grabbed me by the hand and took me to the car. I didn’t even know what he meant but my wife gave me a lesson on the ride home. That was pretty gutsy of the pastor, I’ll give him that!! So then we headed to the other side of the railroad tracks and tried the white baptist church in Whiteytown. Same thing…no preaching about any racial stuff but kids were staring at us and mothers were holding them just a little closer than normal. We were thoroughly disgusted with both churches. Our goal was to find a good doctrinally sound diverse church. HA HA!! I don’t play the lottery and I’d still have better chances of winning it than finding that church. I asked our current pastor before we started going to his church about diversity. He said, “I’d love to have diversity. We’re dying to have diversity. We used to have 3 black couples but they don’t come anymore.” That should have been clue #1. But we decided to go and try it. The dilemma is this: how do you have diversity in the church if the church is geared toward only meeting one demographic’s needs? Neither my wife nor I are big fans of country music or rap (sorry, Lionel!!). But the music is lame, for lack of a better word. My wife has always been called a sellout because she married a white guy and talks white and has her head in the clouds, blah, blah, blah…but we went to the pastor and said, “You know if you want diversity you have to BE diverse.” He said, “What do you mean?” We said, “OK, if you want to have diversity you have to change some things to accommodate diversity. Take the music for example-do we always have to sing songs that sound like funeral marches or could we once in a while sing a Kirk Franklin song or a Mary Mary song?” He got visibly upset and said, “Look, I understand you’re black and everything but if you think you’re going to come up in here and change the way we do things and turn this into some hip hop party it ain’t gonna happen!” Needless to say we don’t go there anymore, either! They want diversity but they want it on their own terms. So we have agreed, for now, that what is most important is doctrine. Since we could not find any Reformed black churches within 80 miles we are looking for a Reformed white church which puts us right back at square one-my wife and kids (and me) feel out of place. The only thing I can hope for is what a local Reformed Presbyterian church is doing: recognizing that there is a diversity problem and training someone to be sent out to change it. They have a black pastor who has gone into the city to lead a congregation in Reformed doctrines specifically aimed at the African-American city population. Along the way, they are hoping that by default some white people (and other races) will attend as well and they can springboard into diversity. I will help that cause as much as I can. I don’t think that we have to lose our individual identities to be a diverse Body. I appreciate and respect differences and I know there’s got to be some other people who feel the same way. Honestly, I don’t want to sound like a pessimist, but to be diverse you have to give something of yourself and if you’re too lazy or not willing to do that than you can understand why it doesn’t successfully happen too often. It’s sad to me. If there is one place in the entire world that people should be able to embrace each other and love each other it should be in Christ’s Body. What could that kind of unity testify to the world?! I think that above all, if you feel led to start a diverse church than you need to be praying that God would lead diverse people to you. If everything done should be to and for the glory of God than our motives for wanting diversity should be to glorify Him, not to be the first successfully diverse church so we can brag about it. And people need to be real. Come as you are, so to speak. Don’t change to try to morph into a congregation. If they can’t accept you or don’t want you then don’t feel pressure to stay (unless you feel God’s leading you to stay). Galatians 3:28 will be a reality. Whether it will happen here or in eternity is up to God’s will and our obedience to follow that will no matter what inconveniences or compromises we may have to make to bring it about in our lifetime. I think the government has forced society to assimilate. But people were forced to do that. With each new generation I think racism gets a little better. But what about a Body of people that wants to be in community together? That takes true love: God’s love!

]]> By: Righter http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/01/25/so-you-want-a-diverse-church-be-a-catalyst-then/#comment-281 Righter Tue, 05 Feb 2008 20:30:06 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-281 Thank you and likewise my friend! Next time I'm in Phoenix (March/April) I'll look you up and we'll go to Pappadeaux's--:-) Thank you and likewise my friend!

Next time I’m in Phoenix (March/April) I’ll look you up and we’ll go to Pappadeaux’s–:-)

]]> By: JulianofGod http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/01/25/so-you-want-a-diverse-church-be-a-catalyst-then/#comment-278 JulianofGod Tue, 05 Feb 2008 20:01:30 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-278 Righter, I fully understand the pressure you have gone through in the work place and I would never take that for granted. Hopefully the path you have created (to the glory of God) is a sure blessing to the young men and women coming behind you in that area. Keep dialoging and do what God leads you to do! I am glad you are out there! Righter, I fully understand the pressure you have gone through in the work place and I would never take that for granted. Hopefully the path you have created (to the glory of God) is a sure blessing to the young men and women coming behind you in that area. Keep dialoging and do what God leads you to do! I am glad you are out there!

]]> By: Righter http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/01/25/so-you-want-a-diverse-church-be-a-catalyst-then/#comment-272 Righter Mon, 04 Feb 2008 04:07:37 +0000 http://blackandreformedministries.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-272 Ok Julian, thanks. I guess I may have been a tad bit biased because I hear that all the time. Please accept my apologies for jumping the gun. Yes, because of my personal experience, I have to closely discern what the deal is--:-) I do hope to keep an honest dialog with both races as this is the only way to understand one another. My hats off to you though bro--I have been the only Black in the office and it was not pretty. I pursued action, and won, but never agin will I put myself in that predicament-it is horrible Ok Julian, thanks. I guess I may have been a tad bit biased because I hear that all the time. Please accept my apologies for jumping the gun.

Yes, because of my personal experience, I have to closely discern what the deal is–:-)

I do hope to keep an honest dialog with both races as this is the only way to understand one another.

My hats off to you though bro–I have been the only Black in the office and it was not pretty. I pursued action, and won, but never agin will I put myself in that predicament-it is horrible

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